Changes that improved our program

[Bob White]

First Fred, you can't base your decision on what I think on two threads. You would be and are incorrect. here are a number of scouters on this thread that, from what they post, are doing a great job and have a good understanding of the methods of scouting. Some do not.

 

Yes there are many ways to reach the mission of scouting. Many organizations besides scouting try to reach the same goals in their programs. It is not the goal that makes Scouting, scouting...its the path we take to get there. It is the methods that make the various programs of scouting what we are as an organization.

 

Think of as a trip across the country. Lets go from Boston to San Diego. How many different ways can you get there? Fly, walk, bike, motorcycle, train, bus, hitchhike etc. But if you you agreed to pilot a 727 and fly people to San Diego what choices do you you have? Can you walk there? Sure but that's not what you agreed to do. You could fly part way and drive part way, but that's not what you agreed to do. You said you would fly a 727 there.

 

We agreed to use the scoutng program nothing else. It works, why not use it? It's what we said we would do. Why not do it. It is what each scout is promised in the first pages of the handbook, why not keep that promise?

 

Everyone needs to come to grips with the difference between rules and methods. The rules are non-negotiable unless you are ready to pay the price for breaking the rule. Methods are how we deliver the program. They are not the same as rules and they vary with the program levels. Good scouters never have a need to break rules. Good leaders understand how the methods can be applied in various combinations to address any issue or activity.

 

This isn't about what works for you or for me, it's about what works for the youth we serve and the scouting program works when you use the methods as the program is designed. The closer you stay to the program the better it works.

 

BW

 

 

 

[Backpacker]

Geeze Bob,

 

I think you are getting rules and methods mixed up now. It seems that many here disagree with you and instead of justifying your comments you go off on some verbal tirade. Don't be such a drama queen Bob. You just can't seem to see the forest through the trees and I am sure your troop suffers with the result of your inflexibility.

 

Bob my point has been all along that all of us use the methods of scouting in our troop because we love the program. Just because some of us add things to help enhance the program does not make us wrong and you right. I think the number of challenges you have received on this thread from many different scouters proves my point.

[Bob White]

There we go with the exaggeraions again Back Packer.

 

"I think the number of challenges you have received on this thread from many different scouters proves my point"

 

Where do you get many different scouters from?

There is you and Ed, and you twe would disagree with me if I said elevators went up and down.

 

Eagledad who who still hasn't seen that what he did was move closer to the scouting program not furher away. And Beaver who usually agrees and works to follow the program. So if we drop you two knee jerk contrarians this is really just a debate between me and EagleDad.

 

So what course did you take at PTC Back Packer and who was the course leader?

 

Also quoting unamed sources is not a very good way to support a point. Who exactly from PTC were you quoting?

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Not everything I post deals with my Troop! And you continual attempts to try an discredit me are getting really boring.

 

My reference to your typos was actually an attempt to help you make your posts readable! There is a free program called ieSpell you can download. Google it. It works like a charm & only takes seconds to use. Wasn't taking shots. Just trying to help.

 

Since you have never made any changes to the delivery of the BSA program you must think the program need no changes. Therefore you must think the program is perfect! Contradictory to what you posted in a previous thread stating it isn't infallible.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

I think you need to reread this thread besides myself and Ed there was Barry, Fred and SR540 Beaver questioning your tactics on this thread alone. If we review other threads more names would come to light. So you must be doing selective reading or you did not understand their posts. As to Philmont I do not have to report to you Bob but the class was in the summer of '02, the trainer was named Frank and he was extremely knowledgeable both as a scoutmaster and as a scouting professional. You on the other hand I know nothing about your scout training or experience and whose credibility is highly suspect. I do not claim myself an expert as you like to do and bluff the people in this forum. I use the scout program with my troop with mixed patrols which works for my troop, and I could care less what you think about that. My troop is growing and advancing way above the national average, as yet we have heard nothing about your troop Bob, why is that? Maybe you either are no longer affiliated with a troop or maybe they are not doing so well in either case coming off like you do as the savior of the scouting program is pretty lame and proves to me how much more training you really need.

[eagleSM]

 

 

hmmm.... interesting....

 

too bad that Green Bar Bill isnt still around....i'd be interested to hear what he did with his unit in the early 1970's when National changed BSA to Scouting USA and, among other things, dropped the Camping Merit Badge as a requirement for Eagle....

 

 

eSM

 

 

[Bob White]

And what training course in '02' was this BackPacker?

 

"You on the other hand I know nothing about your scout training or experience and whose credibility is highly suspect.

 

Well if there is anything you want to know just ask. What would you have to know that would possibly change your evaluation of me?

 

My credibility is of little importance since I have never said "Here is what I do you, should do it me way". All I have done is shared what is in the BSA resources and training. What would it take for you to find credibility in the methods of Scouting?

 

I still have not recieved a reply to my PMs to you so if it is alright I will ask my question here.

 

You have said you were on staff for WB I was curious what staff position you served in?

 

 

[evmori]

All I have done is shared what is in the BSA resources and training? Bob, really, look over your posts. Sure you have shared what is in the BSA resources and training. Then you give us your interpretation of what it means and how we are doing it wrong based on your interpretation! That's a little more than just sharing what's in the BSA manuals.

 

Eagledad,

There have been some excellent idea brought up in this thread!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"The closer you stay to the program the better it works."

 

Bob, you've made it clear that you think this is true. In a discussion like this, however, I'd like to hear a little more about why you think it's true, other than simply being told that BSA is run by people who know best. Tell us how you've seen the program elements that you are defending work well.

 

In addition, I take what everybody says on a message board like this with a grain of salt. If they say they heard it at Philmont, OK, maybe, but I'm still going to make my own judgment about whether it makes sense or not. I'm not going to investigate whether the guy was really at Philmont when he said he was so I can out him as a liar. If that's not what you're trying to do, I can't grasp the purpose of the "questions" you keep asking some of the people who are discussing this issue. I wish you'd knock it off, and debate the issues on the merits.

 

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

No more questions until you answer the ones I asked in my last post. I assure you I was at Philmont in '02 and received wonderful training.

 

So Bob, now its your turn to answer my questions, if you can or cease in your witch hunt.

[Bob White]

Hunt, some of the questions are for a better understanding of what the person is saying, some of it is for clarification because the poster has said two different things and I am trying to understand which is accurate. Some questions are because not everyone on the board is who or what they say they are, and you should want to know who those people are.

 

Now to the important stuff. As a unit, a trainer and from many years on the commissioning staff I could fill many pages with instances of how returning to the scouting methods and procedures have helped units succeed. I would expect Eamonn and OGE could do the same. But I could give a you a few quick ones.

 

A local pack was about to fold because of lack of adult help. I was asked to meet with the committee to help. I gave them copies of "Selecting Quality Leaders" and walked them through the process. In less than two weeks they selected and registerd 9 new adult leaders and the Pack is flourishing today.

 

A troop of 11 scouts was having problems with retention. Troops around them in their community were all growing and theirs was not. Following a roundtable presentation the troop instituted a more rigid Patrol Method including using the three levels of patrols. Four years later they were more than 50 strong.

 

A pack having difficulting keeping boys interested during the pack meeting rearranged the room to be like a recommended floor plan from the cub leaders handbook and followed the agendas from program helps. The adults and youth both behaved better because of the new arrangement and were able to enjoy the program more because of their proximity to the action and sight lines. In addition by practically eliminating announcements all together, and focussing on activities centered on the cubs, they found that attendance improved.

 

A troop that went from 2 courts of honor a year to one per quarter, found that the scouts were more motivated to advance and communications with the parents increased.

 

A survey of 48 troops in a district showed that the ones who used First Class Emphasis had larger troops, much higher retention rates of first year scouts, recruited more webelos each year, and had more 15 to 17 year old scouts than troops that did not use the First Class emphasis program.

 

As A trainer I consistantly hear leaders say things like "That would be so much easier than how we do it now" when they learn scouting administrative and operational procedures.

 

A District that had 5 to 8 leaders attend Boy Scout Roundtable changed to the BSA RT agenda and curriculumn and within 9 months had 68 leaders attend and 98% of the troops represented.(That agenda by the way is modeled after a troop meeting agenda)

 

But what has really made an impression on me are the scouts that come from units that follow the program as compared to those that do not. Boys that belong to units that use scouting are not ashamed for people to know they are scouts, they are active in school and community, they don't think scout meetings are boring, that don't act bored at meetings. They carry themselves with more confidence.

 

These are not my only examples, but just a few.

As I say I could do several pages of examples like this, unfortunately I can do several pages on units that used to exist that did not follow the program. What I cannot do is offer an example of following the program and having it fail, in all the years as a leader I have never seen that happen.

 

BW

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Back Packer,

 

You are obviously not as familiar with my posts as you say.

 

Otherwise, you would know that I do not have a troop... my son does, he is the scout. I serve his troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster. I have given facts about this unit a couple of times is the past but very seldom. The reason is I have no intention of giving the impression that anyone should lead the way I lead, or to do exactly as my son's troop does. My focal point is always on following the BSA program and no one else's.

 

But I have always honestly answered any direct questions about my background and will answer yours as well. What would you like to know? How will my experience affect your responsibility to deliver the BSA program? How would the depth of my experience validate the scouting methods, when the BSA has the most exerience than anyone on this forum and you fail to believe them?

 

I asked you who your conference director was in "02" at Philmont and you told me. I am curious what course you took, and what was the most important thing you felt you learned from it.

 

[Scoutmaster Ron]

I know this is off topic but Bob can you tell P.M. on how this was achieved

 

"A troop of 11 scouts was having problems with retention. Troops around them in their community were all growing and theirs was not. Following a roundtable presentation the troop instituted a more rigid Patrol Method including using the three levels of patrols. Four years later they were more than 50 strong"

[Bob White]

I can do it PM or on this thread Ron which do you prefer?

 

[Scoutmaster Ron]

P.M. when you get a chance..take in mind I cant seem to convince the troop to use the 3 types of patrols 6 Life's 1-Star 2-Tender's 1-Scout..as always tks for sharing