Update to Scouts BSA joining requirements

[yknot]

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Anyone seen a statistic on what percentage of AOL scouts crossover each year and how many are still in scouting a year later.

I've seen people talk about a high drop out rate but I've never seen any firm BSA numbers on it. Anecdotally what I saw in the units I was familiar with was a high crossover rate but a precipitous drop in the first year. Peronally, i my cub years I was leader for three large dens of 10-13 scouts and 90% of them crossed over. By the second year in scouts they were down to 30%-40% of the original den. Granted, we had a lot of troop issues that contributed to that but in my broader scout universe having other family members in friends in units elsewhere and comparing notes with district and council acquaintances, it was a similar experience. When I was more involved as both a committee chair  and committee member, the council heavily pushed recruitment. I always thought the focus should be just as much on retention. 

[sierracharliescouter]

For those who don't like this change, keep in mind that Cubs now starts in kindergarten. By the time the boys are in 5th grade, they are *done* with being a cub and ready to move up if the adults have been doing their part in keeping to the program (i.e., they start learning patrol method in 4th grade). 

This change will definitely benefit our troop. Every year there are one or two friends or non-cub younger siblings who have had to wait until their 11th birthday during the spring of 5th grade to join.

[FireStone]

They had to do this. It was a real problem sometimes with a kid not getting AOL and being 10, crossing the bridge and then not being able to join a Troop, it created a gap in their scouting experience that wasn't good.

Does it open the door to other problems with even younger kids joining a troop? Maybe. But the original problem still needed to be addressed. It had to either be this or set a rule to stop Packs bridging too early.

Which, BTW, is possibly another problem worth addressing. I've had leaders tell me we should do the crossover in February. I think that's way too early.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, FireStone said:

They had to do this. It was a real problem sometimes with a kid not getting AOL and being 10, crossing the bridge and then not being able to join a Troop, it created a gap in their scouting experience that wasn't good.

Does it open the door to other problems with even younger kids joining a troop? Maybe. But the original problem still needed to be addressed. It had to either be this or set a rule to stop Packs bridging too early.

Which, BTW, is possibly another problem worth addressing. I've had leaders tell me we should do the crossover in February. I think that's way too early.

I think you should crossover to your Troop as soon as you finish AOL.  Start Scouting now, go back to the Pack for the ceremony later...

[yknot]

48 minutes ago, FireStone said:

They had to do this. It was a real problem sometimes with a kid not getting AOL and being 10, crossing the bridge and then not being able to join a Troop, it created a gap in their scouting experience that wasn't good.

Does it open the door to other problems with even younger kids joining a troop? Maybe. But the original problem still needed to be addressed. It had to either be this or set a rule to stop Packs bridging too early.

Which, BTW, is possibly another problem worth addressing. I've had leaders tell me we should do the crossover in February. I think that's way too early.

We always crossed ours over in February, the rationale being it gave them plenty of time to acclimate to troop before summer camp. A problem with that was that their first campout was generally in March and often the least pleasant camp out of the year weatherwise. Kids would sometimes never come back. They were also kind of young for the troop level scouts to handle. On the other hand, there is a big developmental shift by 4th/5th/6th and I always saw older cubs practically climbing out the windows to get away from the younger kids. Parents too. We would start to get a lot of no shows in 5th. If we had tried to keep them in Pack until the end of their 5th grade year, I think we would have lost some for that reason. 

  

[Eagledad]

Personally I don' think graduating early or late makes much difference. Our data shows that Webelos in a fun program will join a troop whenever their crossover comes. Scouts who are in a boring den with a burned out leader are likely to quit after webelos no matter what. Webelos pretty much know what they are going to do by the Fall of their last year.

As I said, nationally less than 50 percent of Webelos IIs actively join a troop. That high rate is the result of a demanding 5 year program on the adults. 

A little more perspective is that in most cases, scouts go where their parents encourage them to go. So, the issue isn't burned out or bored scouts. The issue is burned out parents. As has been said, 5 years is way to long for a cub program. It's harder on the adults than the scouts. This sounds off balanced, but if the pack changed its activities to make it enjoyable for parents, the crossover numbers would increase dramatically at all ages. I know this because we did it.

If the BSA wants to make a dramatic jump in membership at ALL ages, National needs to trim the Cub program to 3.5 years.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

Which, BTW, is possibly another problem worth addressing. I've had leaders tell me we should do the crossover in February. I think that's way too early.

When Webelos went from a 9-12 month program to an 18-24 month program in the 1990s, the purpose was to  move the Cross Overs from May/June time frame to February/March time frame in order to get the new Scouts, and  adults, acclimated with Scouts BSA. I know that when I crossed over in May under the older program, I had less than 3 weeks to come up with the money to go to camp, and attend. My family could not afford it at the 'last minute," and I did not go with my troop the first summer I was in Scouts. I missed out on a lot by not going.

 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I think you should crossover to your Troop as soon as you finish AOL.  Start Scouting now, go back to the Pack for the ceremony later...

That is what we essentially did with youngest. He and one other finished AOL right before Christmas. They started going to Troop meetings in January, but the formal Cross Over was in  February. Normally the pack did cross over in December/January, but because for several reasons it was delayed until February so everyone could cross over at once.

 

20 minutes ago, yknot said:

They were also kind of young for the troop level scouts to handle. On the other hand, there is a big developmental shift by 4th/5th/6th and I always saw older cubs practically climbing out the windows to get away from the younger kids. Parents too. We would start to get a lot of no shows in 5th. If we had tried to keep them in Pack until the end of their 5th grade year, I think we would have lost some for that reason. 

I think it depends upon the pack and it's program. I know my pack followed the traditional Webelos Program, i.e. preparing them for Scouts by using the patrol method and start  the transitioning as soon as they become 4th graders, i.e. the summer between 3rd and 4th grade. Those guys were chomping at the bit to become Scouts in December/January.  Other packs waited to transition until 5th grade, if then (more on that in a minute). Those folks were not prepared for Scouts BSA, and the quit within weeks.

Sadly I have reviewed some of the new July 2015 Cub Scout Program Webelos literature, and there are MAJOR  issues with it. The advancement section, which used to talk about the differences between  the Wolf and Bear Program, and the Webelos Program, are not mentioned. In fact the advancement section is cut an pasted from the Wolf and Bear DL books. 

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think it depends upon the pack and it's program. I know my pack followed the traditional Webelos Program, i.e. preparing them for Scouts by using the patrol method and start  the transitioning as soon as they become 4th graders, i.e. the summer between 3rd and 4th grade. Those guys were chomping at the bit to become Scouts in December/January.  Other packs waited to transition until 5th grade, if then (more on that in a minute). Those folks were not prepared for Scouts BSA, and the quit within weeks.

Sadly I have reviewed some of the new July 2015 Cub Scout Program Webelos literature, and there are MAJOR  issues with it. The advancement section, which used to talk about the differences between  the Wolf and Bear Program, and the Webelos Program, are not mentioned. In fact the advancement section is cut an pasted from the Wolf and Bear DL books. 

It' can be a difficult process to manage. We had one really fun year with the 2015 program changes where the AOLs essentially were prepared to enter troop as Scouts. Those changes had not been communicated to the Troop leadership though and their program revisions didn't occur until 2016 I think so they'd had no reason to focus on it. When they crossed over, ready to operate the way they had been doing as AOLs, the troop basically sent them back to kindergarten and made all the AOLs attend Dan Beard at summer camp where they repeated some things for the third or fourth time. I think by the fall, BSA watered the AOL program back down and took out some of the Scout level camping requirements and the troop reverted to that process. A lot of those kids left from sheer boredom and disillusionment with what they'd been promised. 

 

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, yknot said:

 I think by the fall, BSA watered the AOL program back down and took out some of the Scout level camping requirements and the troop reverted to that process. A lot of those kids left from sheer boredom and disillusionment with what they'd been promised. 

I don't know why they would have watered the program back down except they found that Bear leaders weren't crossing over to Webelos because they didn't want to do that outdoor part of the program. Cooking and sleeping in the heat or cold doesn't appeal to a lot of adults. We saw this problem at the council level. Units were forced to find new Webelos leaders and those leaders tended to lack the enthusiasm for planning and leading a fun program. Most of them only did minimal training. We tried several approaches including asking troops to help with the Dens. But, that was an extra responsibility that many troops were reluctant to take on. And, there was no planned program for it, which made it more problematic.

Barry

[5thGenTexan]

43 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't know why they would have watered the program back down except they found that Bear leaders weren't crossing over to Webelos because they didn't want to do that outdoor part of the program. Cooking and sleeping in the heat or cold doesn't appeal to a lot of adults. We saw this problem at the council level. Units were forced to find new Webelos leaders and those leaders tended to lack the enthusiasm for planning and leading a fun program. Most of them only did minimal training. We tried several approaches including asking troops to help with the Dens. But, that was an extra responsibility that many troops were reluctant to take on. And, there was no planned program for it, which made it more problematic.

Barry

Before I threw my hands up and stepped down as CC for the Pack (0ver stuff like this, but not limited) I had a Bear DL tell me Webelos was going to be hard because they already had adventures at the Bear level they couldn't complete in one Den Meeting.  Same guy that told me it was my fault I put in as much time as I do and I shouldnt expect that from everyone.  

[Eagle94-A1]

December 2016 is when National watered down the 2015 Cub Scout program, changing requirements mid year. My pack decided to ignore the December 2016 Update and continue with what they planned, and then synced everything with National in June 2017. BUT books still had the 2015 requirements, and some of those books were still floating in stores as late as 2018/19. And it wasn't just Webelos, it was the entire Cub Scout program that was revamped.

The reason for the watering down of the Cub Scout Program in December 2016 is due to complaints. People were so use to everythign being completed by February for Blue and Gold, and with the 2015 Program, that was not the case. It was designed to take 7 full months to advance each rank Tiger through Webelos, and 5 full months for AOL. Plus the advancement was a lot more challenging and planning intensive with the 2015 program. Those packs that went to roundtable had no problem with the changes inmy neck of the woods.