On my Honor - Documentary on BSA Sex Abuse Scandal

[PaleRider]

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

It is simply sad that there is so much hate being displayed by a few on here.  I have not ever suggested even that the abuse that happened was okay or should not be addressed.  But I have said, and still point out that the level of sensationalism and exaggeration is beyond logic.  That is especially in regard to the continued claims that BSA never did anything about it, when as has been noted enough times, they did more than was usual in those earlier years.  They made huge errors, and they should be held accountable.  But it was not the doing of the larger organization nor a larger percentage of members.  It was the doing of people that took advantage of opportunity, and often was made worse by the scocietal norms of the time.  Are you going to spend as much time maligning the authorities that also would not bring charges, or the families that chose to not make things public?  If not, then you are hypocrits.  As at least a couple of survivors have said on here, this whole media circus has made their pain worse, especially those that had to some extent found a little less of it over time.🙁

You know if scouts had not  done something their wouldn't be 82 thousands claims. You paint scouts how ever you want. To me I say ...

I hope they get shut down. Aint no need for you to respond cause I'm done talking with the likes of you.

Edited April 23, 2022 by RememberSchiff
Cleaned and clarified some language. RS

[FireStone]

Youth members also use this forum, can we please keep the conversations and language respectful of that?

Scouting is local, always has been, always will be. And locally, most units operate without any cases of abuse. Nationally the numbers of cases are horrific. But keep in mind they are national numbers, spread over the better part of a century and heavily weighted towards decades in the middle of the 20th century.

Today's BSA stands well above most other youth organizations in terms of training and resources to protect youth members. We have a lower incidence of abuse than most other things kids can join, including sports.

Locally, I think it would be tragic if Packs and Troops had to fold because of what the national organization did in the past, based largely on things that happened long before many of us were even in the BSA as kids ourselves. What good does it do to deprive the current generation of scouts the opportunity to benefit from the program? Is it just revenge for the sins of the past at the BSA headquarters? And we're going to take it out on kids who have nothing to do with it? Or paid staff who weren't even in those positions when the abuse was being covered up?

The BSA today isn't the BSA that did these things. Punish those responsible. Support the victims, award them the damages they deserve. But let the program continue for the kids today who want it. And let us adults who are committed to doing absolutely everything we can possibly do to protect kids continue to be able to do that and keep this organization the safe space that it has grown into for these scouts. 

I support the victims. And I will stand with you in any way I can. But I won't do that by calling for the BSA to burn to the ground.

[RememberSchiff]

3 hours ago, FireStone said:

Youth members also use this forum, can we please keep the conversations and language respectful of that?

Thank you. I edited some of those posts. ~RS

[packsaddle]

First I would like to thank RememberSchif for continuing to moderate these forums. I've been in 'hibernation' for quite a while and the notice I received caused me to emerge for a moment.

While I have a deep and very personal sympathy for the feelings that are expressed by PaleRider, for me that arises from a source other than Scouting. At least for me, Scouting was like an oasis in a society that otherwise contained terrible things which I was not able to completely avoid, it turned out. I was deeply saddened when I first learned, years ago, about the terrible things that happened to boys at the hands of scouters. But contrary to those crimes, what I sought and found, so long ago as a boy in Scouting, was a haven where I could find some peace and a place in this world. It will always be a positive part of my life, what's left of it, just it always was since that time. I hope and I suspect that overall there have been more experiences like mine and while there is no way to excuse the crimes that were committed, I think most of Scouting was good for the boys. Scouting may not have a future like it used to be. But I think it can still have a future, especially with the changes I saw regarding inclusiveness. In the future Scouting may not be exactly like it was. That might not be a bad thing.

[johnsch322]

9 hours ago, skeptic said:

If not, then you are hypocrits.  As at least a couple of survivors have said on here, this whole media circus has made their pain worse, especially those that had to some extent found a little less of it over time.🙁

What is hypocritical is to expect coverage of the abuse that went on in the BSA to have it within the same articles/videos etc. to also paint a rosy picture of BSA when the BSA never acknowledged to the public its abuse issues until lawsuits/publicity and the Oregon Supreme Court compelled them to. As a survivor I find it repugnant that you use us survivors a basis for your objection to media coverage.  The "media circus" has made it at times more aware of our pain but it also has been therapeutic and empowered us to speak out and try to bring change.  You only have to look at powerful voices such as the survivor who spoke during the confirmation hearings and is using his voice to change YPT.

To the moderators I try to refrain from using language of hate and I do not believe what you edited from me was graphic. It unfortunately is one of the constant reminders I have of my past abuse.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

What is hypocritical is to expect coverage of the abuse that went on in the BSA to have it within the same articles/videos etc. to also paint a rosy picture of BSA when the BSA never acknowledged to the public its abuse issues until lawsuits/publicity and the Oregon Supreme Court compelled them to. As a survivor I find it repugnant that you use us survivors a basis for your objection to media coverage.  The "media circus" has made it at times more aware of our pain but it also has been therapeutic and empowered us to speak out and try to bring change.  You only have to look at powerful voices such as the survivor who spoke during the confirmation hearings and is using his voice to change YPT.

To the moderators I try to refrain from using language of hate and I do not believe what you edited from me was graphic. It unfortunately is one of the constant reminders I have of my past abuse.

Balance and perspective, along with somehow also seeing beyond the outline to other lines of intersection.  You cannot have that if somehow the subject is removed from its outliers, which in this case is society at the times these things occurred.  As far as the video is concerned, I have yet to see it in its entirety, so perhaps that will alter my view.  As far as you comment about my view being repugnant; it is not me that is using survivors.

[johnsch322]

9 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Balance and perspective, along with somehow also seeing beyond the outline to other lines of intersection.  You cannot have that if somehow the subject is removed from its outliers, which in this case is society at the times these things occurred.  As far as the video is concerned, I have yet to see it in its entirety, so perhaps that will alter my view.  As far as you comment about my view being repugnant; it is not me that is using survivors.

Your view of what happened in the past comes from someone with a rosy picture of the BSA. My view is as a survivor of what transpired in reality in the BSA. You cannot water down what happened by saying such society in those times. Child abuse was as illegal, abhorrent and cruel 60, 50, 40 or 30 years ago. The only difference now is that it is no longer covered up. Your arguments remind me of those who still defend Jimmy Saville because he raised so much money for charity. If you asked any of his victims I am sure that they would say that what he took from them does not equal any of the good that the money he raised was used for. I ask you this, if you could change history and not have BSA come into existence would you for the sake of all of the victims?

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

 ask you this, if you could change history and not have BSA come into existence would you for the sake of all of the victims?

I was just thinking about this question with all the abuse in the public school system. In fact, you could ask the question of any organization, associated, or public institute. One victim of harm is a crime against humanity. Should the National public school system be shutdown over one victim. Maybe five. Dare not that we even consider 10 victims against  all the good that has come from the public school system over the last 100 years.

The question has no relevance forward balance and never will with the hurt with any victim of unfair harm in any system intended to advance positive growth of its members because it doesn’t take in the positive accompaniments of the goals.

if 99 percent of the community doesn’t relate to a victims pain, it’s because the 99 percent didn’t feel that experience That doesn’t mean they don’t feel compassionate. They do. 

Barry

[johnsch322]

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I was just thinking about this question with all the abuse in the public school system. In fact, you could ask the question of any organization, associated, or public institute. One victim of harm is a crime against humanity. Should the National public school system be shutdown over one victim. Maybe five. Dare not that we even consider 10 victims against  all the good that has come from the public school system over the last 100 years.

The question has no relevance forward balance and never will with the hurt with any victim of unfair harm in any system intended to advance positive growth of its members because it doesn’t take in the positive accompaniments of the goals.

if 99 percent of the community doesn’t relate to a victims pain, it’s because the 99 percent didn’t feel that experience That doesn’t mean they don’t feel compassionate. They do. 

Barry

Let me rephrase. Would anyone forego their wonderful experience in the BSA if it meant one less victim of abuse?

[Eagledad]

Just now, johnsch322 said:

Let me rephrase. Would anyone forego their wonderful experience in the BSA if it meant one less victim of abuse?

The experience is making moral and ethical decision makers of millions of young people for future generations and cultures.

Barry

[skeptic]

38 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Your view of what happened in the past comes from someone with a rosy picture of the BSA. My view is as a survivor of what transpired in reality in the BSA. You cannot water down what happened by saying such society in those times. Child abuse was as illegal, abhorrent and cruel 60, 50, 40 or 30 years ago. The only difference now is that it is no longer covered up. Your arguments remind me of those who still defend Jimmy Saville because he raised so much money for charity. If you asked any of his victims I am sure that they would say that what he took from them does not equal any of the good that the money he raised was used for. I ask you this, if you could change history and not have BSA come into existence would you for the sake of all of the victims?

Your pain and struggle can never be erased, even you have noted that.  But, that does not remove the reality that the instigator of that pain wa one person, a predator that preyed on you, and he was part of the larger community and others, besides the BSA failed you.  That is my point.  That cannot be changed; but it should be part of the picture presented, to be accurate.  I suspect you, and others actually understand that.  This is a time when that broader brush likely should be used. 

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

The experience is making moral and ethical decision makers of millions of young people for future generations and cultures.

Barry

So you are saying the ends justifies the means and you would not sacrifice your experience for mine?

[SiouxRanger]

"And so Grasshopper, a house catches fire...do the authorities and community rush to extinguish the fire and limit the damage...or do they lay back, content in the knowledge that their house is safe, and that house fires are rare and though they have been spared, and the damage to the homeowner and family is severe, few will suffer it, so no action is required and they speak not of it ever after?"

"And, if the authorities and community never speak of the loss, is the sense of loss and actual damage to the homeowner and family reduced to zero?"

"And if the authorities and community fail to step in to assist, and then fail to acknowledge the loss, will the risk of house fire be reduced, and the future loss to other homeowners and families be reduced?"

[skeptic]

5 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

"And so Grasshopper, a house catches fire...do the authorities and community rush to extinguish the fire and limit the damage...or do they lay back, content in the knowledge that their house is safe, and that house fires are rare and though they have been spared, and the damage to the homeowner and family is severe, few will suffer it, so no action is required and they speak not of it ever after?"

"And, if the authorities and community never speak of the loss, is the sense of loss and actual damage to the homeowner and family reduced to zero?"

"And if the authorities and community fail to step in to assist, and then fail to acknowledge the loss, will the risk of house fire be reduced, and the future loss to other homeowners and families be reduced?"

Not an accurate comparison.  BSA actually did more than many, though they failed in too many cases, for whatever reasons.  The proverbial fire was not simply ignored, though in too many instances the efforts to not only combat, but make it less likely for another fire, were not made as they might have been, and surely still should be.  That does not take away the fact they often did do the right thing and went beyond the community standards of the time in many cases.  

[SiouxRanger]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Let me rephrase. Would anyone forego their wonderful experience in the BSA if it meant one less victim of abuse?

That is a VERY TOUGH QUESTION and I am glad you asked.

I am not a survivor, had a good experience with Scouting, and with my sons, had no idea of abuse issues in Scouting until some contact with articles about the Oregon case, but not quite recognizing the depth of the issue.  THEN, a high school friend of mine called me about 6 years ago and told me of his abuse by a SM.

I was stunned.

This was my friend from high school, camped dozens of times together in the woods behind my parents' house.  Dozens is 30 or 40, every third weekend-some years.  Camped at the local scout camp together, worked on staff at the local camp 2 years, bunked together, and worked together several years at another camp.

From 1970 until 2015±, NO MENTION of issues nor had I detected any (but as naive Eagle Scout, what do I know of these things?)

And then he called, "in counseling since college..."  I was crushed.  He was such a gentle soul.  My friend.  I had no idea.

It clearly massively impacted (maybe not ruined his life, he earned a Phd.) but it really ruined his adult life, phenomenally accomplished as it was.

And so, in surrogate, I stand with the Survivors.

"Balance and perspective" mentioned by some poster above.  I have a very empathic ability to vision. (Well, if folks think otherwise, we can all debate that elsewhere.)

My guess is that Survivors place their focus on "Perspective."  That is, "what happened to me." 

"Grasshopper, you've been shot in the gut, what is your balance?"

"Master, I did nothing wrong to entice that behavior or entitlement me to such treatment."

I'd guess that Survivors only focus on what they experienced.

And so they should.

To answer the question, would I forgo?

The answer depends on when I learned of the depth of abuse...and had persuasive evidence of the abuse.

Well, whatever, stand assured that TODAY, I have not rechartered, and am not likely to do so.

And I STAND WITH THE SURVIVORS.