On my Honor - Documentary on BSA Sex Abuse Scandal

[JoeBob]

1 hour ago, clbkbx said:

Ouch… I would also be too embarrassed to link to that partisan source (Jonathan Turley of The Hill).

Careful, lest you reveal yourself as partisan on the other side.

 

Well, nevermind...

[skeptic]

3 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Careful, lest you reveal yourself as partisan on the other side.

 

Well, nevermind...

Why must everything always have "sides"?  People are people, and in most cases they should be able to just live and do their own thing.  What  is the purpose of constantly finding fault and making inuendo?  Certainly does not reflect well on the idea of Scout Spirit, or most religious doctrines, or even the the Constitution.  Just asking.

[clbkbx]

21 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Careful, lest you reveal yourself as partisan on the other side.

Agreed! And that’s one of the things I’ve really enjoyed about this forum. You might have made a correct assumption about my politics but I’ll endeavor to not let that be confirmed here. 

I’m not technically adept enough to quote two posts but to @skeptic, there is a documented partisanship to many media outlets. Sure, in a perfect world there wouldn’t be, but that’s why I thought it was important to note the source… we’re living in a world where provided information is not benign and it’s better to know than not.

One of my last responses to one of your posts was about an analysis by one of the only people allowed to review the BSA IV files and which vindicated BSA to a degree. I think that’s really important context. 

[SiouxRanger]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

Why must everything always have "sides"?  People are people, and in most cases they should be able to just live and do their own thing. 

Having met with many thousands of folks, many situations being stressful, I have come to the conclusion that most folks "just want to get through the day unscathed and a bit better off for their effort."  Most folks care not a whit for "sides." It seems to be the dynamic of human interactions that everyone gets pressured to take a side.  "Tom and Mary are getting divorced...which side are you on?"  And those that don't are considered traitors by BOTH sides.

In truth, just about every situation is incredibly complicated, and no answer is clear or likely ever to be clear.  All when the most reasoned answer is likely, "maybe," or "perhaps."

The majority cannot handle the complexity of these things and insist on forcing all into one of two molds, those "for," and those "against."

Reason is irrelevant.

"Can't win, can't break even, can't get out of the game."

[SiouxRanger]

1 hour ago, clbkbx said:

there is a documented partisanship to many media outlets. Sure, in a perfect world there wouldn’t be, but that’s why I thought it was important to note the source… we’re living in a world where provided information is not benign and it’s better to know than not.

As a long student of the art and science of journalism (and its ethics), starting with Edward R. Murrow's life pre-journalism, my library of books by journalists is second in number only to my library of books by Winston S. Churchill (British-not the American Winston S. Churchill), there was a time that all broadcasts from Europe by "Murrow Boys" broadcasting on the "European Evening Roundup" (which included at least one female), HAD TO MADE LIVE so as not to permit the introduction of edited material which would be possible were the broadcast recorded, edited, and re-broadcast.

Some decades ago, as I recall, the National Geographic Society digitally "moved" a pyramid or two, of the Great Pyramids' fame, to make the cover on its magazine more attractive.  The first example of digital offensive hanky-panky I remember and NGS caught a harsh word or two over it.

The tradition of journalists presenting facts, as news, long the touchstone of journalists, has long eroded.  Journalistic commentators such as John Chancellor, David Brinkley, and the incomparable Eric Severeid (check out his farewell address on YouTube-no one thinks like him anymore), clearly identified themselves as presenting opinion based on facts.

There was clear distinction between news (fact reporting) and editorial comment (opinion).

Alas, no longer, and no one seems to care that it has all devolved into slop.

And so, we are all left to form our own opinions on what passes for "news."

Churchill referred to a "Bodyguard Of Lies," in referring to the intentional barrage of misinformation broadcast to Allied forces, but also intercepted by Nazi Germany, to conceal the truth of accurate information also broadcast.  Churchill's "Bodyguard Of Lies" was intended to protect the Truth of accurate wartime information.

Sadly, now the "Bodyguard Of Lies" is not the smoke-screen but presented as Truth, though it remains lies through and through.

No longer can anyone trust any news source as the self-imposed rules of ages past are long gone.

Free Speech has devolved into a free-for-all.

 

[SiouxRanger]

On 5/6/2022 at 3:53 PM, MattR said:

In other words, if the BSA could get more interested in quality, of all types, over money then I think great things could happen.

Well from my experience, and all I have read, will BSA answer the phone?

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Esse quam videre

(Just trashed my prior work as I got it all wrong. Got to proof-read and check sources-this is important work.)

Depending on the source ESSE QUAM VIDERE  translates: "to be rather than to seem." Or "to be, rather than to seem." (Not sure what the comma adds.)

I have not seen this quote before, and I just love quotes. They espouse important principles. And in my opinion the world would be better off if folks knew some principles and adhered to them.

So, "to be rather than to seem" is attributed to an essay by Cicero, widely acclaimed as Rome's greatest orator.

Wikipedia:  Esse quam videri is found in Cicero's essay On Friendship (Laelius de Amicitia, chapter 98). Virtute enim ipsa non tam multi praediti esse quam videri volunt ("Few are those who wish to be endowed with virtue rather than to seem so").

Which seems to say, "Many want to be considered to be virtuous, but few really want to be virtuous."

Or in more modern language, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Or, in my interpretation, "I am what I say."

All of which evoke the idea that the speaker can't or cares not to live up to the standards which they espouse others strive to attain.

Another version, looking at it from the other side is the more recent Yoda, "There is no 'try," either do, or do not."

 

 

 

[johnsch322]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:57 PM, elitts said:

should be based upon the BSA's more recent history rather than the pre-1980s.

And that is why I said past 10 past 5 and past year. However, an asterisk denoting that most male victims may not come forward for the next 10 to 20 years.

[Eagledad]

10 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

 

Which seems to say, "Many want to be considered to be virtuous, but few really want to be virtuous."

Or in more modern language, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Or, in my interpretation, "I am what I say."

Very profound. I’m wonder if the many want to be virtuous, but their genetics is incapable. The foundation of the Christian religion professes that all man fail.

i used to say that virtue in a troop is defined by the least virtuous adult. But the truth is that for the scouts, virtue is defined by the scoutmaster. The only hope for those scouts is if the Scoutmaster is as humble as he is virtuous.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks

Barry

[skeptic]

12 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

And that is why I said past 10 past 5 and past year. However, an asterisk denoting that most male victims may not come forward for the next 10 to 20 years.

How to say this without being "accused"?  IF the time frame denoed for victims coming forward is valid, and every thing I have read indicates it likely is, or even off in that some "never" can bring it out, then how does that reflcect on the basic abuse event?  Somewhere on here, one survivor noted that his father never knew.  The studies indicate that male abuse victims are far less willing to even broach the abuse, but rather try to hide it.  

That is not giving any excuse for the abuser, only asking how, at the time, was it dealt with?  If the parent(s) were not told, how might that have made the situation more difficult?  Would not the survivor/victim have been left with little support when things did not follow as they should have?  Again, we see evidence today with some studies that the emotional effects often manifest in ways most parents are not likely to understand without knowledge of the event, and some, of course unfortunately even then do not understand.  

Part of the updated YP is a discussion of flash points that might indicate some trauma, and what to watch for.  That is a step in the right direction, but we need to continue to reinforce this concept and not hide our heads in the sand as was too often the case in the past.  

Please, I understand that trauma, whether abuse of this nature, or simply something that frightened a child severely can not just be forgotten; it is buried too often as part of the human response (?), or lack of emotional strength at the time.  It has to be worse, perhaps for abuse, but it also can relate to night mares, or even painful injuries.  I am trying to get perspective, not suggesting the survivor/victims are to blame.  This is far too complex for most of us to completely understand, if even the "experts" still do not do so.  

[johnsch322]

6 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Somewhere on here, one survivor noted that his father never knew.

That may have been me. I never told anyone for 50 years. 

 

7 minutes ago, skeptic said:

That is not giving any excuse for the abuser, only asking how, at the time, was it dealt with?  If the parent(s) were not told, how might that have made the situation more difficult? 

If no one was told how would the parents know? 

 

8 minutes ago, skeptic said:

This is far too complex for most of us to completely understand, if even the "experts" still do not do so.  

Much more is known today and I personally know much more as I have come to grips with what happened to me and how the trauma has manifested in my life. 

[MYCVAStory]

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

Please, I understand that trauma, whether abuse of this nature, or simply something that frightened a child severely can not just be forgotten; it is buried too often as part of the human response (?), or lack of emotional strength at the time. 

An important issue.  It is considered part of the human reaction to trauma.  Think of it as part of the "fight or flight mechanism."  Something so awfully traumatic is buried so that the mind doesn't have to deal with it again and the resulting impacts.  Another way to look at it is not the lack of emotional strength but the absolute strength to keep it inside where the victim has some degree of perceived control over it.  What we see then, over time, are the coming together of many factors that "allow" the abuse to be shared.  For many that's just plain losing the desire or ability to hold it inside for so long because of essentially being too tired to do so.  That may also be coupled with a place in life where it's perceived as "safer" to share.  When you consider that for many men they don't share their abuse until well into middle-age when their life is more solidified it makes sense.  It also explains why the bankruptcy was SO painful for many.  They knew they had to come forward but they were NOT ready to share, but they did.  For others, they decided not to file a claim and now face a lifetime of second-guessing.  Oh, and for those who did come forward, and had to tell others, they too might wish they hadn't when any award is insignificant.  I had to tell my family after decades of keeping it secret.  I still have days, many, when I wonder if maybe I shouldn't have.  But  then, I remember how hard it got to live that lie that nothing had ever happened.

[ThenNow]

20 hours ago, skeptic said:

Somewhere on here, one survivor noted that his father never knew. 

It is I. Do you have a specific question? I believe we discussed this topic back then, though in a fairly combative exchange. You pointed to this "failure to disclose" being a major hitch in the process giddy up, stating I bore some responsibility for remaining mum. Happy to try over if there's something I can add.

[ThenNow]

15 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

What we see then, over time, are the coming together of many factors that "allow" the abuse to be shared.  For many that's just plain losing the desire or ability to hold it inside for so long because of essentially being too tired to do so.  That may also be coupled with a place in life where it's perceived as "safer" to share.

There's a third option, not at all volitional.

I did not come to a place of factors allowing me to share. I had hinted, but never disclosed to anyone other than the girl I dated who was abused by her father, along with her twin sister. Even then, the words were few. In my case, the factors wrenched from me the box I had been desperately clutching to my chest. A box of "dark and dangerous treasures" which had been poisoning me from the inside out for 30 years. In a very real sense and more accurately, the infectious box finally ate its way out of me in true Alien fashion. My body couldn't hold onto it any longer, though it tried. In the trying, that 40 year old body, along with it's pre-packaged mind and spirit, utterly broke. I wanted to haul it back inside with one hand and sew up the wound with the other, but the wound was gaping and irreparable. I was too tired anyway. 

Over the next 15 years, I ended up in the hospital for peri-anal fistulae, heart attack, and multiple surgeries. I ended up in treatment for addiction, childhood trauma, eating disorders...a "professional in crisis." Multiple times and gobs-o-money. I ended up in the psyche hospital, also multiple times. Road the slab for ECT and had the pleasure of being shot with Haloperidol and strapped down post suicide attempts and violent resistance of police intervention. The beat goes on. I lost my company. I lost my friends. My church crew even split, save one. I nearly lost my family. I berate myself that I didn't have the ability to stuff it longer and later chose the moment, more or less. Perhaps the toxic brew of BSA CSA co-mingled with other CSA, and physical and emotional abuses of my childhood, teen and young adult years to up the potency of the infection. I wonder. I know mine is not a unique story.  MANY have had it worse. Just thought I'd add human implosion to the abuse disclosure options.

[InquisitiveScouter]

^^^^^

There is no justice among men that can remedy this. My heart swells every time I read a similar account.

And my anger burns at the mostly now nameless and faceless people who protected pensions and organizations rather than flesh and blood.

It is my fervent hope and prayer that the burdens of victims be lifted one day with righteous judgment and recompense.