On my Honor - Documentary on BSA Sex Abuse Scandal

[johnsch322]

20 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

While I do agree with you to a certain extent, no business (non-profit or not) is going to tell you something some egregious.

In the auto industry it is called the NHTSA safety reports (1 to 5 stars) and in the pharmaceutical industry they are called "Pharmacy Auxiliary Labels" (Drug Warnings). I am sure I can find more examples.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

In the auto industry it is called the NHTSA safety reports (1 to 5 stars) and in the pharmaceutical industry they are called "Pharmacy Auxiliary Labels" (Drug Warnings). I am sure I can find more examples.

I'm all for all the other youth scout organizations providing their data so a baseline can be determined for the ranking of the stars. I also believe yearly total numbers are important so parent can compare the groups to measure risks.

Barry

[MattR]

2 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

I'd like to frame this discussion in a different way.  A lot of it is focused on the past of course.  The future can be seen as binary; it will get better or it won't. 

I think this is the wrong way to look at the problem and is the source of a lot of angst here. Rather than ask for a specific failure rate that is acceptable, after which everyone can say there is no longer a problem, it would be better to use methods that continually drive down failure rates. Look at air travel. Back in the 70's there were enough crashes that all the parties involved (manufacturers, airlines, regulators) got together and decided that air travel was both important and dangerous. They started measuring death rates in deaths per billion passenger miles traveled. I think it started around 3000 deaths/Bmi and is now less than one. They will never be satisfied and more people travel because of it. The same approach is used in manufacturing. Toyota charges a premium for a reason.

There is no acceptable failure rate in the BSA, the BSA should continue and the model should be find the low hanging fruit and solve that first. Repeat forever. 

Some people say that the BSA is not the only youth program with a problem and I agree. If the BSA can help germinate a safety program that works then surely the schools, churches and what not will eventually use the same approach, databases, etc.

One thing I learned back in the 80's was that quality can't be added after the fact and there can't be a "quality" department. Quality has to be built in from the beginning and everyone has to understand it. So the BSA'S one person in charge of youth safety, research, improvement or whatever that guy was doing, was destined for failure.

If you're looking for indicators of a good program for reducing CSA in the BSA, look at how it's structured among the heads of each silo that the BSA is notorious for having. Just one guy or one department, forget it. But if the guy incharge of improving adult training says the BSA doesn't need more units so much as better leaders because of improved program, YP, parent interest, etc. then something great will happen.

In other words, if the BSA could get more interested in quality, of all types, over money then I think great things could happen.

[yknot]

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

20 Centuries of Catholic Church on review, but with obvious analogies to the century of BSA...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w&ab_channel=playinhard

please take 20 minutes to view

 

Powerful stuff. I do miss Hitch. It is true. You can substitute BSA for Catholic Church and the issues with denial and lack of institutional honesty sound the very same.  Violence condoned in pursuit of a higher goal is not pardonable.

[gpurlee]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Look at air travel. Back in the 70's there were enough crashes that all the parties involved (manufacturers, airlines, regulators) got together and decided that air travel was both important and dangerous. They started measuring death rates in deaths per billion passenger miles traveled. I think it started around 3000 deaths/Bmi and is now less than one. They will never be satisfied and more people travel because of it.

Interesting analogy. As a private pilot, I have seen first hand the commitment to improving aviation safety. The flying public today is safer now than it has ever been due to this emphasis on safety and prevention. An important part of this is the National Transportation Safety Board which is an independent, governmental  body charged with investigating incidents and making recommendations to prevent future incidents. They are very skilled and have broad investigative powers. While they work with airlines, pilot associations and manufacturers, they are independent and their findings carry great weight. Their recommendations have resulted in major improvements in aviation safety. If we are serious about youth safety and protection and believe there is a significant problem, then perhaps we need the development of an NTSB style entity that is not beholden to any organization but whose authority, credibility and oversight can lead to the continuous improvement that MattR suggests.

[OaklandAndy]

6 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I am sure I can find more examples.

I'm sure you can't find a high percentage who actually look those numbers up. The statistics are out there for you to look up, not to tell willingly. Big difference. Unless you're trying to make a change and difference right here and now, what is that people want and what are you trying to prove? 

Did the BSA mess up. Yes! Are they going to pay for it. Yes! Are people going to be aware of it. Yes! That doesn't change the mission that the volunteers are trying to uphold here and now. Be a part of solution, no the problem- "nuff said". 

[johnsch322]

11 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

I'm sure you can't find a high percentage who actually look those numbers up. The statistics are out there for you to look up, not to tell willingly. Big difference. Unless you're trying to make a change and difference right here and now, what is that people want and what are you trying to prove? 

Did the BSA mess up. Yes! Are they going to pay for it. Yes! Are people going to be aware of it. Yes! That doesn't change the mission that the volunteers are trying to uphold here and now. Be a part of solution, no the problem- "nuff said". 

You are correct there is a big difference. Do you think a drug company or any company wants warnings on their product? No never but past actions or current sometimes necessitates such actions. 

Discussion and ideas can make things better. I know for a fact that survivor members of the YPT committee read these posts and some ideas may be brought forward for incorporation. If I float a solution or a recommendation whether it is something more direct or making parents more aware I might just be part of the solution. Alas your "nuff said" is not part of a solution. There can never be enough said about CSA and YPT.

[MYCVAStory]

3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I know for a fact that survivor members of the YPT committee read these posts and some ideas may be brought forward for incorporation.

Which committee is this?  The one that was a part of the non-monetary demands of the settlement has not been created.

 

4 hours ago, MattR said:

Rather than ask for a specific failure rate that is acceptable, after which everyone can say there is no longer a problem, it would be better to use methods that continually drive down failure rates.

Of course.  But as the old saying goes, "The unaimed arrow never misses."

[elitts]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

You are correct there is a big difference. Do you think a drug company or any company wants warnings on their product? No never but past actions or current sometimes necessitates such actions. 

Discussion and ideas can make things better. I know for a fact that survivor members of the YPT committee read these posts and some ideas may be brought forward for incorporation. If I float a solution or a recommendation whether it is something more direct or making parents more aware I might just be part of the solution. Alas your "nuff said" is not part of a solution. There can never be enough said about CSA and YPT.

Just to be clear though, drug companies don't have warning labels based upon past history of old drug formulations, they post warnings of known risks of the current drug.  So any BSA risks and warnings pamphlet should be based upon the BSA's more recent history rather than the pre-1980s.

[mrjohns2]

18 hours ago, MattR said:

There is no acceptable failure rate in the BSA, the BSA should continue and the model should be find the low hanging fruit and solve that first. Repeat forever. 

As an engineer who works in industrial production, this is exactly how we view safety. Our plant alone spends millions a year on safety, but it will never stop. Never. We report, we investigate root causes, we fix, engineer, implement, and repeat. Forever. 

[ThenNow]

13 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

Which committee is this?  The one that was a part of the non-monetary demands of the settlement has not been created.

My recollection is Dr. Kennedy from the TCC watches the forum, per one post eons ago. He testified about working on the YP terms now in the plan. 

[MYCVAStory]

12 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

My recollection is Dr. Kennedy from the TCC watches the forum, per one post eons ago. He testified about working on the YP terms now in the plan. 

I should have quoted better originally.  Johnsuch said "I know for a fact that survivor members of the YPT committee read these posts and some ideas may be brought forward for incorporation. "  I'm not clear what Committee that's supposed to be unless one has been formed, prior to any confirmation ruling, and the BSA hasn't communicated that.  I'm looking forward to a TCC Town Hall after a ruling and getting a sense of "what now?!"

[skeptic]

I am putting this here, as I am unsure where it might be a point of discussion.  This quote is from an opinion piece related to the current SCOTUS issue.  But it seems to me that with a tweak or two, it might well reflect on the problems in BSA and really society in general.  BSA or Scouting began as an effort to create better citizens at a time of great turmoil and change.  It became very idealistic, even as it struggled to fit into the changing society.  The repetitive use of its "goody-goody" image as out of sync grew, even possibly making some refuse to recognize that it still had elements of the greater society or culture in which it was living.  Here is the quote; 

"What is clear is that the court has become a tragic anachronism in our age of rage: an institution that relied on the integrity and ethics of its members and staff at a time when such values are treated as naive. It relied on justices and clerks alike remaining bound to the institution and to each other by a constitutional faith."

Moderators, please feel free to do what you choose and put it in the right place if you feel it does not fit.  

[clbkbx]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

an institution that relied on the integrity and ethics of its members and staff at a time when such values are treated as naive.

Ouch… I would also be too embarrassed to link to that partisan source (Jonathan Turley of The Hill).  

Integrity and ethics are very, very important but some hide behind the veneer of the institution. How does a victim of abuse in the BSA think when they hear trustworthy, loyal… ? I know it makes my stomach turn even as I try to follow the same principles in my life.

We need to track ethics and integrity by actions not words. SCOTUS has ideals of non-partisanship but politicians fight for the appointments… so the ideal is laughable.  Same for BSA in my mind, better to prove it than say it. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

17 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

Ouch… I would also be too embarrassed to link to that partisan source (Jonathan Turley of The Hill).  

Integrity and ethics are very, very important but some hide behind the veneer of the institution. How does a victim of abuse in the BSA think when they hear trustworthy, loyal… ? I know it makes my stomach turn even as I try to follow the same principles in my life.

We need to track ethics and integrity by actions not words. SCOTUS has ideals of non-partisanship but politicians fight for the appointments… so the ideal is laughable.  Same for BSA in my mind, better to prove it than say it. 

Esse quam videre