On my Honor - Documentary on BSA Sex Abuse Scandal

[SiouxRanger]

28 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Not an accurate comparison.  BSA actually did more than many, though they failed in too many cases, for whatever reasons.  The proverbial fire was not simply ignored, though in too many instances the efforts to not only combat, but make it less likely for another fire, were not made as they might have been, and surely still should be.  That does not take away the fact they often did do the right thing and went beyond the community standards of the time in many cases.  

And so, at the end of the day, the fire was LARGER.

[skeptic]

Or, because they made more effort than the broader community, there were fewer fires, especially in comparison to the community overall.

[SiouxRanger]

One cannot DENY that National drew itself into a nearly 3 Billion bankruptcy.

Tell me, please, how is a 3 billion bankruptcy any measure of business success?

[johnsch322]

34 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Or, because they made more effort than the broader community, there were fewer fires, especially in comparison to the community overall.

And exactly when did that effort start before or after the public was made more aware of the issues and why did the BSA lie to congress about sexual abuse?  

[skeptic]

20 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

And exactly when did that effort start before or after the public was made more aware of the issues and why did the BSA lie to congress about sexual abuse?  

Once again you ignore the details.  The IV files were not normal for the time, and they did take notice and began the YP efforts that were used as a model by others.  But, this is a useless effort, as you know perfectly well that their less than wonderful efforts were more than was common at the time.  And more recently, we have seen the stats that indicate they were not the only ones not doing their best, shown by other studies of camps ans such.  Believe and say whatever makes you feel better. 🤫

[johnsch322]

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Once again you ignore the details.  The IV files were not normal for the time, and they did take notice and began the YP efforts that were used as a model by others.  But, this is a useless effort, as you know perfectly well that their less than wonderful efforts were more than was common at the time.  And more recently, we have seen the stats that indicate they were not the only ones not doing their best, shown by other studies of camps ans such.  Believe and say whatever makes you feel better. 🤫

I believe you only want to look at the details and then interpret them to fit the scenario in your mind. You try to make the BSA look better by trying to point out others (though you fail to name them or show real statistics). You fail to answer key questions such as why did they lie to congress. You ignore the fact that it took the Oregon Supreme Court to have them turn over any of their files. 

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I believe you only want to look at the details and then interpret them to fit the scenario in your mind. You try to make the BSA look better by trying to point out others (though you fail to name them or show real statistics). You fail to answer key questions such as why did they lie to congress. You ignore the fact that it took the Oregon Supreme Court to have them turn over any of their files. 

Here is the link to the Warren Report:  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/youthprotection/pdf/WarrenReportSummary.pdf

 

IF you have read it, it is not a smoking gun destroying the BSA, and it was reported to the federal government.  The summary states  "

Taken as a whole, these data underscore the threat posed to youth by individuals who have or develop a sexual interest in children or adolescents. This is a problem that has been present throughout history yet one that has been addressed more consistently and thoughtfully throughout society over the past twenty-five years. As reflected by these data, prior to this time, Scouting involvement served a significant protective function for youth and BSA’s use of a community vetting system and a national registration system succeeded in offering youth an overwhelmingly safe environment in which to grow and develop according to the values espoused by the organization. "

 

You can of course actually spend the time to review the entire report, and it consistently does not put the type of info that you continue to suggest, rather, it in a number of instances notes the BSA was and is a better protective youth organization.  There are also data fields that indicate parents choosing to not persue things, the percentage of files that were given to authorities, and so on.  

I have not tracked down a recently shred study on camps that show the preponderance of abuse in various types.  I posted it on this Forum, but have not found the post again yet.  It also indicates that BSA is generally safer than types of camps listed in the data.  

So, say what you like, and make your own claims.  I have offered data and links.  None of my statements have EVER suggested the abuse was or is okay, nor that the Survivors or Victims should not be given some type of justice.  My only claim is that the problem is one of our larger society, and indicators are that it is less of an issue with BSA, even in the past as compared to others, especially.  With the enhanced YP guidelines, it should be even safer.  It will NEVER be absolutely safe, just as we are never totally safe in the larger community, even as adults.

I do continue to be amazed how many people simply will not look beyond their own biases in even a slightly balanced or unanced way, and choose to instead try to skew the larger picture, no matter what it is.  

Edited April 23, 2022 by skeptic
lost the field

[Eagledad]

5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

So you are saying the ends justifies the means and you would not sacrifice your experience for mine?

My experience for yours! Should everyone in the nation sacrifice their education for the one abused student? We could go on and on, should we sacrifice aviation for one crash victim? Should we sacrifice cars? Your question doesn’t have a pragmatic relevance. Your trying use moralism to raise your anger above the nobility of scouting’s mission. But your question isn’t in context with the overall good of scouting’s mission anymore than the abuse student in public school. Bad things happen to good people, but the world doesn’t come to an end.

Barry

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I ask you this, if you could change history and not have BSA come into existence would you for the sake of all of the victims?

8 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Let me rephrase. Would anyone forego their wonderful experience in the BSA if it meant one less victim of abuse?

 

Two very different questions ....   

Foregoing my experience?  If it meant one less victim, yes I would avoid BSA if it prevented a single case of abuse.  I just don't believe that my avoiding BSA would prevent abuse.   Period.   I hope that my being in BSA prevented potential abuse by knowing YPT and emphasizing YPT expectations.  

Change history so BSA does not exist?  Nature abhors a vacuum.  #1 Youth would find somewhere else to spend time.  Would they be safer?  I don't think so.  That is my opinion though and from what I've seen in life.  Cumulatively, I believe there would be more incidence of abuse and other negatives.  ... #2  If BSA did not exist, another organization would have become dominant to offer something very similar.  The question is would they have done better or worse?  Other organizations did not track abusers.  Most other organizations were not better.   

 

None of this lessens the pain and hurt from those damaged.  The abuse happened.  The pain is real. 

 

USAG - Gymnasts suing FBI ... This last week, I read about abuse survivors suing FBI for negligence.  The FBI negligent?  These agents are the most professional of all police.  If they can't get it right in the last decade, who can?  ... This triggered more reading.   USAG had a long term problem of predatory coaches that moved gym to gym as issues happened.  In 1990, USAG published a list of banned coaches.  ... but that list itself had many issues ...  

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/08/07/holes-child-abuse-safety-net/88118404/

In 2017(??) ... 30 years later...  the USAG president said they had no duty to report if they did not first-hand see the abuse or receive a signed statement from ...  This is the organization most known for winning USA gold medals.  An extremely professional youth organization.  And they could not get their act right even into the 2010s.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal

The part I don't understand the most ... USAG president did not believe in a duty to report ... USAG boasted a banned coaches list ... but you don't get added until legal proceedings are done?  ... and you don't have a duty to report incidents to police?  ... huh?  ... and background checks only on professional USAG members?  not anyone working at the gyms?  ... not publishing when membership is suspended?

Sadly ... I believe USAG was more common than unique.  
 

My life experience.  I did not see abuse in scouts.  But I've 3rd hand learned (news, etc) about CSA by our former city mayor, local teachers, local music instructors, local coaches, other local youth, etc.  ... I just don't believe "cumulatively" there would be less CSA if BSA did not exist.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by fred8033

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If it meant one less victim, yes I would avoid BSA if it prevented a single case of abuse. 

Thank you. Of course the question was hypothetical and does not change history but it does show where your heart is at.

[MYCVAStory]

22 hours ago, FireStone said:

Scouting is local, always has been, always will be. And locally, most units operate without any cases of abuse. Nationally the numbers of cases are horrific. But keep in mind they are national numbers, spread over the better part of a century and heavily weighted towards decades in the middle of the 20th century.

Today's BSA stands well above most other youth organizations in terms of training and resources to protect youth members. We have a lower incidence of abuse than most other things kids can join, including sports.

I deal in facts.  It's probably worth noting that over 2,200 claims from abuse over the past 20 years were filed in the bankruptcy.  While "small" in comparison to the total number of claims it is important to understand that for the majority of Survivors their abuse is never confronted and reported (if at all) until well into middle-age.  This makes it entirely possible that the numbers for the past 20 years may be much higher.   Had the bankruptcy occurred in 1980 you would NOT have seen the spike in the late 70's because very few Survivors would have been willing to come forward at that time if they were in their teens or 20's.  As well, I encourage you to look deeply into the claim that the BSA has a lower incidence of abuse, including sports, and provide the facts to support that claim.  Claim data related to this bankruptcy are found on the TCC's website.

[johnsch322]

12 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

I deal in facts. 

And here is another fact if or when this settlement is done it will be the largest CSA settlement in history.  Yet there are still people saying that the BSA did a better job at YPT than other organization's, Hmmm?

[jcousino]

Some how maybe i am missing something here . its not whether scouting is better or worse than other groups. It comes down because of the actions or inaction or a mixture of the two , people where hurt some totally destroyed. Not even to add in the lives around them that were changed for ever. I wish we had a better system to right wrongs but this is the best we have. I hope and pray that out of this scouting is better and all youth programs are better at protecting the youth under there charge. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by jcousino

[Eagledad]

17 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

And here is another fact if or when this settlement is done it will be the largest CSA settlement in history.  Yet there are still people saying that the BSA did a better job at YPT than other organization's, Hmmm?

Isn’t that like saying traffic lights don’t work because someone got hurt by a drunk driver running a red light.

Scouting is very safe. Not perfect, but very safe.

Barry

[clbkbx]

On 4/23/2022 at 7:34 PM, skeptic said:

My only claim is that the problem is one of our larger society, and indicators are that it is less of an issue with BSA

The Warren report relied on the IV files and estimated there were 12,254 victims between 1944 and 2016. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/23/nyregion/boy-scouts-sex-abuse.amp.html

That the analysis was based on the provided files is a huge caveat throughout the report. This is the sentence before the claim that the rate was lower in the Boy Scouts: 

In making these comparisons, it is important to note that the two “prevalence studies” are different in intent and thoroughness and many factors can help explain the different rates of child sexual abuse including social class, family cohesion, victim vulnerability, and varying levels of investigative experience and vigor.

So, a lot more caveats. Just in a first pass review, there is no reference to the gender makeup of abusers and victims in the Boy Scouts and how that affects reporting.

There are 82,000+ claims in the current bankruptcy. As in the Warren report data, the comparison isn’t direct but I think it’s fair to say the Warren estimates are low. 

Maybe after the bankruptcy there will be more clarity (given more data) on whether CSA was “less of an issue” in the Boy Scouts. 

I’m very [insert synonym for skeptical] of some Warren report conclusions.