Revised Pre and Ordeal ceremonies?

[Oldscout448]

Anyone  know where I can get a look at them?

[acema606]

This link should help you out https://oa-bsa.org/article/ordeal-ceremony-revision-announcement

 

There is a link within it that will take you to the password protected latest Ordeal ceremony.  Additionally, your Lodge Ceremonies Chair and/or Advisor may already have a hard copy.  If you are still at a loss, they can reach up the organizational ladder within the OA.  

[mrjohns2]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:24 PM, acema606 said:

Additionally, your Lodge Ceremonies Chair and/or Advisor may already have a hard copy. 

Do they still make hard copies?

[acema606]

23 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Do they still make hard copies?

I don’t know if you can still get them from Section or National but you can still print them.  

[Oldscout448]

Firstly  let me say that I appreciate  the link @acema606 

Next I must say that I've never been so upset by any program change in my  Scouting life, and that includes the ISP of the '70's!  I see how the changes are intended to provide links and hidden clues to the Brotherhood and Vigil ceremonies.  It's  skillfully done.no doubt of it. It's absolutely  dripping with symbolism.  BUT, not one candidate in a hundred will notice them, much less understand them.   The ceremonialists might if they've had a few years of  experience.  No one else. It's not unlike the hidden meaning in the counterclockwise movement  of the principles in the Preordeal ceremony opposed  to the clockwise movement in the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies.. Except that this change actually detracts  from the ceremony.  The repeated short and simple conversations between the principles as the candidates enter the circle was designed to reinforce the idea that admittance to the Order was something earned not given.  

This flies in the face of the primary purpose of the ceremonies.  They are supposed to be understandable,impressive, memorable  and meaningful to the candidates . Not be a  showpiece for how many references  and allusions can be inserted.  Nor should the candidates be told that they now understand concepts and principles that they probably don't.   On a side note, the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies are not one ceremony on one night separated by 6 months.  No matter what J. Dunbar says. They're just not. Never have been.  

I've  seen many changes both in the ceremonies and in the Order itself in the last 47 years.  Some good some bad.  But this one is is  ..

Words fail me. Scout like ones anyway.  

 

 

 

[MikeS72]

52 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Firstly  let me say that I appreciate  the link @acema606 

Next I must say that I've never been so upset by any program change in my  Scouting life, and that includes the ISP of the '70's!  I see how the changes are intended to provide links and hidden clues to the Brotherhood and Vigil ceremonies.  It's  skillfully done.no doubt of it. It's absolutely  dripping with symbolism.  BUT, not one candidate in a hundred will notice them, much less understand them.   The ceremonialists might if they've had a few years of  experience.  No one else. It's not unlike the hidden meaning in the counterclockwise movement  of the principles in the Preordeal ceremony opposed  to the clockwise movement in the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies.. Except that this change actually detracts  from the ceremony.  The repeated short and simple conversations between the principles as the candidates enter the circle was designed to reinforce the idea that admittance to the Order was something earned not given.  

This flies in the face of the primary purpose of the ceremonies.  They are supposed to be understandable,impressive, memorable  and meaningful to the candidates . Not be a  showpiece for how many references  and allusions can be inserted.  Nor should the candidates be told that they now understand concepts and principles that they probably don't.   On a side note, the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies are not one ceremony on one night separated by 6 months.  No matter what J. Dunbar says. They're just not. Never have been.  

I've  seen many changes both in the ceremonies and in the Order itself in the last 47 years.  Some good some bad.  But this one is is  ..

Words fail me. Scout like ones anyway.  

 

 

 

Downloaded all three ceremonies, but have not had time to read through them yet and compare them to what we have been using for the past few years.

(I do still have to catch myself once in a while when reciting the obligation... I have on occasion gotten some strange looks if I have a flashback to the 60's and include words no longer a part of the current obligation)

[acema606]

Ironically I sent out the link with the updates, but haven't taken a look at any of the new ceremonies myself yet   I watch plenty of ceremonies but my assignments in the Lodge have been have been related to Inductions and Service.  I'll try to give them a look myself.  Guessing from commentary above I'm guessing that we have all seen the ceremonies so many times we notice each and every little change and detail.  To the starry eyed and somewhat sleep deprived candidates the finer elements are generally lost on them.  It really takes years of hearing the words, reciting them, living them to get to the point that many of us are at.  I've been married almost 25 years.  Each time I go to a wedding it reminds me of my own vows, what I promised to do all those years ago, and what it's all about and means even more.  Going to Induction weekends is the same.  Those who just go through Ordeal, or get Brotherhood and then aren't active etc..  never really get to experience and understand that.  It takes me back to my first time around the fire and the words that were spoken.  Like most things in life, it's what you put into it that determines what you get out of it.  

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, acema606 said:

Each time I go to a wedding it reminds me of my own vows, what I promised to do all those years ago, and what it's all about and means even more.  Going to Induction weekends is the same.  Those who just go through Ordeal, or get Brotherhood and then aren't active etc..  never really get to experience and understand that.  It takes me back to my first time around the fire and the words that were spoken.  Like most things in life, it's what you put into it that determines what you get out of it. 

I like your reflection. Are you saying maybe the changes and the depth are not for the new members, but for the ones that have heard it all again and again? I like that idea. 

[Oldscout448]

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I like your reflection. Are you saying maybe the changes and the depth are not for the new members, but for the ones that have heard it all again and again? I like that idea. 

Now that's an interesting idea.  I confess it's one that hadn't occurred to me.  Probably because very few members bother to attend the ceremony unless they have a relative or close friend getting sashed.   I can certainly see these changes fitting in very well in a rededication  ceremony. I understand that some lodges have such on a regular basis.  And props to 'em. 

But  I'm still contending that the Ordeal ceremony's primary and overriding purpose  is for the candidate/ new member.  When  I ask new members, the few who want to do ceremonies mind you, what aspect  of the ceremony they liked or disliked,  by far the most common response is " Well I really didn't understand  them."   We are not serving them well by making it more complex and obtuse.

As a long ago performer and now a coach, I've seen the Pre, Ordeal, and Brotherhood ceremonies hundreds of times maybe a thousand, and I absolutely agree that it takes a long time to fully understand them.  As an ex- ceremonialist I love the new intricacies,  as an advisor who watched the 'sash and dash ' rate go from 75% to 95% in the last few years, I'm appalled.  Our once robust chapter is  being sustained by half a dozen 19 and 20 year olds.  Without a very significant change we won't be here in a couple of years.  Nearby chapters are in even worse condition.  Some seem to exist only on paper. 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

As an ex- ceremonialist I love the new intricacies,  as an advisor who watched the 'sash and dash ' rate go from 75% to 95% in the last few years, I'm appalled. 

Perhaps many do this because of the culture in your lodge that promotes using terms like "sash and dash"?

I also am appalled...

I ask you to reconsider using such a derogatory phrase toward your fellow Scouts and Arrowmen.  You say you are an "ex" ceremonialist, performer, and coach.   I believe your using this phrase reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Order of the Arrow is about. 

The Order of the Arrow exists to serve a unit's recognition of their Scouts and the promotion of camping within the council.

Purpose

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

There is not one thing at all in there about Scouts having some obligation to serve the lodge.

"An Arrowman’s first duty is to his unit. We must always keep in mind that a primary role of the Order of the Arrow is to strengthen units and help units to succeed, particularly in the outdoor phase of their program."  This is from your Guide for Officers and Advisors. 

The Order of the Arrow is part of a unit program.  If the Scouts of a unit wish to bestow the honor of OA membership on one of their own, neither you nor anyone else in the lodge have diddly squat to say about it.  You are there for them...

If, after election, a Scout wishes not to undertake the Ordeal, that is just fine.  It's his prerogative.

If the Scout wishes to complete his Ordeal, and never do a thing to support the lodge, that is just fine, too.  Lodge membership is always a choice (through paying your annual dues first, then doing whatever else you wish as part of the lodge program.)  After completing the Ordeal, a Scout is then ALWAYS a member of the Order, whether or not he chooses to renew his membership in the lodge.

"I will always regard the ties of brotherhood in the Order of the Arrow as lasting..."  Using the phrase "sash and dash" does not show a spirit of Brotherhood.

In the Wimachtendienk,

Amangiechsin

1984

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[Oldscout448]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Perhaps many do this because of the culture in your lodge that promotes using terms like "sash and dash"?

I also am appalled...

I ask you to reconsider using such a derogatory phrase toward your fellow Scouts and Arrowmen.  You say you are an "ex" ceremonialist, performer, and coach.   I believe your using this phrase reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Order of the Arrow is about. 

The Order of the Arrow exists to serve a unit's recognition of their Scouts and the promotion of camping within the council.

Purpose

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

There is not one thing at all in there about Scouts having some obligation to serve the lodge.

"An Arrowman’s first duty is to his unit. We must always keep in mind that a primary role of the Order of the Arrow is to strengthen units and help units to succeed, particularly in the outdoor phase of their program."  This is from your Guide for Officers and Advisors. 

The Order of the Arrow is part of a unit program.  If the Scouts of a unit wish to bestow the honor of OA membership on one of their own, neither you nor anyone else in the lodge have diddly squat to say about it.  You are there for them...

If, after election, a Scout wishes not to undertake the Ordeal, that is just fine.  It's his prerogative.

If the Scout wishes to complete his Ordeal, and never do a thing to support the lodge, that is just fine, too.  Lodge membership is always a choice (through paying your annual dues first, then doing whatever else you wish as part of the lodge program.)  After completing the Ordeal, a Scout is then ALWAYS a member of the Order, whether or not he chooses to renew his membership in the lodge.

"I will always regard the ties of brotherhood in the Order of the Arrow as lasting..."  Using the phrase "sash and dash" does not show a spirit of Brotherhood.

In the Wimachtendienk,

Amangiechsin

1984

 

 

 

I truly appreciate your reply. Although it did irk me at the first reading. Why is he telling me things that I know full well? Things that I have both taught and lived? By the third time though perhaps  I'm getting  a clearer picture. I am assuming that you have experienced people using "sash and dash" as an insult. Somehow insinuating that such are less than true Arrowmen.  I had absolutely no such intent  In fact I debated with myself on its use in the previous  post.  But as I actually first heard the phrase on this very forum , don't recall ever hearing it in the lodge and it describes rather accurately the actions of the scouts so I decided to go with it.   It was not intended in any way to insult or belittle the scouts or scouters who never come to any other chapter or lodge function.  It may well be that they are diligently and cheerfully serving in their troop, crew, post, or pack.  If so then I count them as my brother or sister in the Order.

Until recently ( 2013 ?) there was an understanding that a sash with bars meant that the wearer  was serving in the lodge as well as his unit. "so far as I am able" But the brotherhood Obligation is no more so that's gone.   And the depressing fact remains that if no one is willing step up and serve in the chapter,, or lodge the Order will simply wither  and eventually die. 

My sincere apologies to any I offended

Mikemossin Wunachk

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Oldscout448

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

I truly appreciate your reply. Although it did irk me at the first reading. Why is he telling me things that I know full well? Things that I have both taught and lived? By the third time though perhaps  I'm getting  a clearer picture. I am assuming that you have experienced people using "sash and dash" as an insult. Somehow insinuating that such are less than true Arrowmen.  I had absolutely no such intent  In fact I debated with myself on its use in the previous  post.  But as I actually first heard the phrase on this very forum , don't recall ever hearing it in the lodge and it describes rather accurately the actions of the scouts so I decided to go with it.   It was not intended in any way to insult or belittle the scouts or scouters who never come to any other chapter or lodge function.  It may well be that they are diligently and cheerfully serving in their troop, crew, post, or pack.  If so then I count them as my brother or sister in the Order.

Until recently ( 2013 ?) there was an understanding that a sash with bars meant that the wearer  was serving in the lodge as well as his unit. "so far as I am able" But the brotherhood Obligation is no more so that's gone.   And the depressing fact remains that if no one is willing step up and serve in the chapter,, or lodge the Order will simply wither  and eventually die. 

My sincere apologies to any I offended

Mikemossin Wunachk

 

We are kindred spirits, then.

I am glad that climate does not exist where you are.  Please forgive me for drawing that conclusion from your post.

I have heard this phrase repeatedly in the last two lodges I have been a member of, and it is used as a pejorative.

Concur on your Brotherhood observations...sadly.

In the last 10 or 15 years, I have experienced Lodges becoming more self-centered.  The focus has been on the Lodge's program and what they can do to get Arrowmen to serve that program.  I hope you agree this is a corruption of the purposes of the OA.  I firmly believe this turns a lot of Scouts and Scouters off to Lodge membership.

We could start another post on the topic of remedies for low Lodge participation...

 

[Oldscout448]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We are kindred spirits, then.  Kinda thought we might be

I am glad that climate does not exist where you are.  Please forgive me for drawing that conclusion from your post. No offence  taken

I have heard this phrase repeatedly in the last two lodges I have been a member of, and it is used as a pejorative.

Concur on your Brotherhood observations...sadly. 

In the last 10 or 15 years, I have experienced Lodges becoming more self-centered.  The focus has been on the Lodge's program and what they can do to get Arrowmen to serve that program.  I hope you agree this is a corruption of the purposes of the OA.  I firmly believe this turns a lot of Scouts and Scouters off to Lodge membership. Yes and yes

We could start another post on the topic of remedies for low Lodge participation...oh yeah, a long one