Now, when did it actually work?

[OldGreyEagle]

dan, PM me with a fax number and I will send you the page I referenced

[dan]

Oh Yeah I forgot one thing, the reason the committee wants Star Scouts to do a leadership project is because the troop does not do a good job with helping, guiding the scouts with a POR, I have tried to do this, 3 times, I have meet with the SM, and showed him want I would do to help the SPL guide his staff, basically just giving the scout with the POR the POR responsibility out of the JLT troop training program and help them do the job, he okayed it, and I said I will need about 10 minutes at the PLC to get this started, he would call me a week before the PLC to say that he and the SPL have started this and I would not have to kick it off. Nothing has been done with this.

[FScouter]

"Seems like this info should be in the SM handbook."

 

Chapter 10 (Advancement) of the Scoutmaster Handbook states that requirements may not be added to nor omitted. It also refers the reader to the Advancement Policies book for further information.

 

Dan, you might mention to your SM that in reading the SM Handbook, you learned something ...

[scoutingagain]

I'm not sure it this little story fits here or in Fling1's laser tag thread or threads on paintball but here goes.

 

At one recent PLC meeting ideas were kicked around for outings. Usually the SM or ASM will make suggestions and the PLs will pick one and begin planning and I confess, while the boys do much of the planning we still have more adult involvement than I would like to see. Until...one idea presented by the boys was paintball. Well it was explained to them this was against the G2SS and they couldn't do it as a Troop outing. They asked, well why can't they do it as just a bunch of friends. They were told they can do what they want, but couldn't imply this was a Troop or Scout function of any kind.

 

Well to make a long story shorter, they planned the paintball outing outside Troop meetings or other Scout functions, made arrangements to collect $$, transportation from cooperative parents, arranged for all the forms to be signed and collected, and basically planned and executed the most boy run activity, the boys that happened to be in the Troop I'm associated with, have ever done and had a great time.

 

SA

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I wonder how many of the scouts in the group that went would ever concede the leadership skills they used were taught to them by scouting?

 

You do have proof the scouts have the skill to organize, they just need the proper motivation, sorta like don;t ever do a great job cleaning the toilet, you may end up with a job for life?

 

So, the issue, and the boys are the ones to answer this, what other activities would they embrace with the same passion as paintball? There HAS to be some, doesnt there?

[silver-shark]

"All the BSA suggests is 'this is the program and it works'. 'Do this and you will have a scouting program'. Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works, and what Scouting says is Scouting?

 

Hi Bob,

 

You seem to be saying that ALL troops were experienceing the problems that led to the creation of New Scout Patrols, and First Class/First Year Program. I don't beleive this is an accurate interpretation.

 

I'm sure there were MANY troops out there, that through a quality program, were not experiencing the dropout rates that the others, with weaker overall programs were. These troops that did maintain membership are also saying, "Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works".

 

You go on to state, "Why risk doing something that might not work? Has changing it worked for your troop Ed?" This has been a common theme in many of your statements both to, and about Ed recently. Are you certain that Ed changed to mixed aged patrols? It seems possible that he never changed away from them. Many troops haven't.

 

As far as I can tell, Ed stepped down from the SM position a little over a year ago, based on the way he signed his posts prior to that time, and the fact that his Member Profile page lists him as an ASM currently. I can see MANY reasons that a scout might have to leave a troop, other than the mere lack of a NSP program, particularly in an area hit with economic misfortune in the way that the Pittsburg area was after 9/11/2004. Without knowing ALL of the facts regarding the loss of members in that particular troop, nor the level of involvement that Ed maintains within the troop, it seems highly unfair to characterize the loss as being caused by any particular thing. For all any of us know, Ed may have experienced tremendous success with mixed aged patrols for many years prior to stepping down.

 

You go on to state, "I am not the expert, the BSA is, I did nothing more than what thousands have done and continue to do...follow the program. I just don't understand your resentment about that, or your determination to continue to do things differently when it has obviously not worked." The only thing that is obvious, is that there is ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat. Every Troop Program is different to a degree within the BSA. Every troop does not have the same successes, problems, failures, resources, or even boy personalities.

 

I can see that; in rural areas where boys of varying age groups are placed together in school or athletics quite often, it would be more suitable to utilize mixed aged patrols, as opposed to larger urban areas, where they are continually with boys either their own age or within a year of their age, might be better suited to the NSP system.

 

No system is perfect in all situations, ncluding the BSA.

 

P.S.

 

Our troop is experiencing tremendous success with 3 mixed aged patrols and 1 Venture Patrol, where we define success as high percentages of happy boys in all age groups staying in the troop while advancing, leading, and grasping the Ideals we are trying to impart.

[dan]

silver-shark

I know what you mean. My sons troop is a troop that is growing, and they have tweaked the program also, not only have they tweaked advancements. They have also tweaked the selection process for POR!

All positions are voted in except ASPL, the SPL selects the ASPLs (2).

It was found that some scouts where not happy because the SPL did not pick them for a POR that they wanted or the SPL did not want to hurt anyone feelings, so they decided to have all POR except ASPL voted into office!

 

4 years ago this troop has 40 scouts today they are over 90! And they quit recruiting 2 years ago!

 

It is good that we can tweak the program or not change it when the BSA changes, to work for us, is it not?

 

I will have some more tweaks to share later! I bet you guys cannot wait!

 

Biggest troop in the District! And Still growing!

[Bob White]

Shark writes

"You seem to be saying that ALL troops were experienceing the problems that led to the creation of New Scout Patrols, and First Class/First Year Program."

 

That is you inference and incorrect. I have never said that or suggested it. What I said was that the BSA found that scouts who were in same age patrols and that achieved First Class withing the first 14 months state in Scouting longer than scouts who did not.

 

"These troops that did maintain membership are also saying, "Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works".

 

Because the program belongs to the BSA and they are constantly testing and improving it to better fior the needs of todays members. As unit volunteers we deliver the program not alter it willy-nilly.

 

"Why risk doing something that might not work? Has changing it worked for your troop Ed?" This has been a common theme in many of your statements both to, and about Ed recently. Are you certain that Ed changed to mixed aged patrols?

 

That depends on your source. In Ed's posts he says he uses mixed aged patrols (plural), on Ed's Website it showed he had a mixed age patrol (singular) Ed's troop lost so many scouts over the last two years that according to the troop web site there is only one patrol, and yes it is a mixed aged one.

 

For all any of us know, Ed may have experienced tremendous success with mixed aged patrols for many years prior to stepping down.

 

All Ed has ever posted is "Here is what I do in MY troop". If others deserve credit there would be no way to tell by his posts. He has yet to even admit that a problem exists, or offer to try the scouting program as a way to stem the exodus.

 

Acording to his website he was the scoutmaster during the time period that the troop experienced the decline. I am only going by the information Ed has shared. If that information is flawed you will need to take that up with Ed.

 

"The only thing that is obvious, is that there is ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat. Every Troop Program is different to a degree within the BSA. Every troop does not have the same successes, problems, failures, resources, or even boy personalities.

 

Every troop can have the same successes, if that were not true there would be no purpose to having the Scouting program. It is designed to produce specific reoccurring successes. Certainly you have noticed through the forum and through observing other units that many of the problems experienced by a unit have been experienced by others in the past, or are current problems, or will be future problems. Thats why the BSA does the studies, to develop program elements and resources to help units avoid those common pitfalls. But the units have to actually follow the program for it to work.

 

I have never said that each unit program has to be identical. Different packs troops and posts will go different places do different things, sing different songs play different games. But they can still all follow the Scouting methods and still each be unique. You do not have to change the BSA program to be different or to solve problems. It's by using the scouting methods that you can be unique and still be successful in delivering the BSA proigram and avoid many of the problems we see on this forum and in our own scouting communities.

 

"I can see that; in rural areas where boys of varying age groups are placed together in school or athletics quite often, it would be more suitable to utilize mixed aged patrols,"

 

I would like a specific example of an athletic program where 17 year olds compete with 10 1/2 year olds. Or a school where they are in the same class learning the same thing.

 

That is the problem with mixed aged patrols, you cannot give one program to meet the needs of each Age/ability group. You are either boing one segment or above the ability level of the other.

 

"No system is perfect in all situations, ncluding the BSA."

 

You would have to learn it and then practice it before you can make that decision. It seems a number of posters are adverse to either let alone both. We are talking about what works best, not what works perfectly.

 

"Our troop is experiencing tremendous success with 3 mixed aged patrols and 1 Venture Patrol, where we define success as high percentages of happy boys in all age groups staying in the troop while advancing, leading, and grasping the Ideals we are trying to impart.

 

We had an interesting speaker at Philmont a couple summers back. He came from a family of pro and college basketball stars. Every evening his entire family was playing basketball in the driveway. But he didn't. he wanted to be a Boy Scout. He bought his own handbook, and practiced his skills while his father and siblings practiced basketball and teased him about wanting to be a Boy Scout. When he turned 11 he put on his uniform and headed to the school where the local troop met. He new some guys from school who told him about the monthly camping trips and the fun they had.

 

The troop had 60 boys, the largest troop in town. He got to the meeting opened the dors and do you know what the guys were doing???

 

That's right, playing basketball. They played all meeting long. They played all meeting long every week. The campouts were always to the same place every month. But they were HAPPY, and they STAYED IN THE TROOP...

 

and he quit after one meeting. And never went back again.

 

Scouting isn't just having boys in the unit and it isn't just having fun.

 

Scouting is the Methods of Scouting used to achieve the Aims and Mission of scouting. Anything else is just Doing Stuff in a scout uniform.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

silver shark,

Thanks for your post. Bob did get his facts from my Troop's web site (which is currently off line). What he didn't get off the web site were the reasons why there was a decline in membership. I posted this in another thread when Bob decided "Haven't bashed Ed in awhile". I will not be subject to his unbending interpretation of the BSA anymore.

 

Once again, thanks. You were right on the money. BTW, Pittsburgh has a h at the end

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I think silver-shark makes a good point that some of the deviations from the prescribed BSA program are not tweaks, but rather troops continuing to do things the "old way." Of course, there are two sides to this--on the one hand, I do believe that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." If the purpose of NSP and FCFY is retention, I can understand why a troop that has never had any problems with retention might be reluctant to adopt it, unless other advantages can be demonstrated. On the other hand, troops often cling to old ways of doing things for the wrong reasons (such as restricting female leaders, retesting at BORs, etc.).

And again, I think you have to make a distinction between changes that BSA requires you to make, and those it doesn't. A troop can't require scouts to earn the Cooking merit badge to make Eagle no matter how much they might want to.

[Be_Prepared]

Boy, that non-scout basketball player gets around. Back in December he was a minister at an Eagle Court of Honor whose brothers played at Michigan State. The plot thickens......

[scoutingagain]

OGE,

 

Your absolutely right. Lo and behold it was obvious the scouts had picked the organizational skills to pull off an outing. And yes, we need to channel those skills to a more scoutlike activity.

 

SA

 

Sorry to interupt the tweaking/nontweaking discussion. I havn't had time to express my thoughts on the discussion at length, but in following this thread and the others, there seems to be much more common ground among the participants than I think they realize. It has been interesting to follow though.

 

SA

[WWBPD]

When does the 'Program' not work? Look in the mirror. When it causes dedicated scouters like yourselves to spend a hundred hours debating and slamming each other over a nonsensical question. That is time that could have been spent changing a boy's life and transforming the 'Program' from the perfect world of paper to real-life, with all of its human imperfections. Those hours are gone and wasted, but there is still time. Get out from behind your computers and work with a scout. Every hour counts and too many have been wasted here.

 

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

[Fuzzy Bear]

Since I have read this thread or small booklet, I feel like I deserve the right to comment from my own non-expert viewpoint like so many others.

 

Yes, I agree that thousands have benefited from the BSA program for almost 100 years. The BSA management has continually "tweaked" and changed the program by so many professionals, teachers, lawyers, administrators, child specialists, etc. over all of those years that we must take note. It has been updated, changed, improved, made better over and over again. Many of the basics are there and have shown to be good standards to use but most all of them have been subject to some kind of change since inception. I propose that 100 years from now there will be more changes, additions and subtractions. Tweaking the program has been necessary to continue to make it relevant and safe and so, on it goes.

 

Now, in light of all of the BSA tweaking, should the volunteers that manage a unit tweak the program to make it better and/or make it work for them? Let's take the example of Uniforming. Should a unit be expected to use all of the uniform all of the time according to the Uniforming regulations? The answer of course is yes. To follow the standard is to abide by the yearly Recharter mandate which is to follow the BSA program. But you say most of the boys in my unit are poor and can only purchase the shirt, so why not tweak this one method? Check a couple of things first. Do you know what is expected by the BSA for proper Uniforming? Sometimes people never know what is expected of them, so they use ignorance as a reason to not abide by the Uniforming standard. Next, find out what would make it possible to reach the Uniforming standard. Is there a Unit and individual Budget plan in place to earn their own way to this standard? If you know what you are supposed to do and there is a plan in place to deliver it, isn't the unit accomplishing the goal? I would have to say yes it is and would not count it against the unit because their motivation and actions speak for the standard itself.

 

Does this action make it better instead of simply being a practical fix? Well, it fixes a problem and it stays within the ideal of paying one's own way. This could be thought of as being better because when compared to a unit that is in full uniform but all of the uniforms were purchased by well meaning parents, then it has something more of the BSA program ideal than the all uniformed unit. So, it could be considered better as well as a fix.

 

I have observed many units from being part of the Commissioner's Service. I make program quality the number one issue in what I do. I also try to put friendship and understanding as a priority. This allows me to know and understand the program and also to know and understand what is happening in the unit. A surface inspection is not always the best. I try to go a step further to find out the reason, sometimes what a unit is doing doesn't follow the standard but really has great merit. Those actions need to be recognized.

 

Thank you for your time and patience in reading this.

 

FB

[Bob White]

I haven't checked on this thread in a while so I thought I would catch up

 

Silver shark you are right it was at a COH, I was trying to remember wher we were when it happened and asked my better half, she thought it was PTC and I agreed. You will have to understand we go to a lot of scouting events and it's easy to bur them together sometimes.

 

Ed

We agree about your incredible and continuous loss of scouts we disagree on the reason.