Now, when did it actually work?

[Zahnada]

There's been a lot of criticism about the thread that this one was spun from. Many posters feel the thread was more of a set-up than a discussion.

 

So now I ask the question from a different angle. When have you altered/experimented with the program and met with success? What were some new things you've tried that actually worked?

[Bob White]

And perhaps answer this at the same time. If the program works (since no one has yet to prove it doesn't) why would you need to change it? Why not just follow the Scouting program?

 

If in fact you are going to change it why not create your own uniform and call what you do by a different name since you are leading a different program.

[eagle90]

God forbid, we have any independent thought, and use our experience to change one little iota of the Boy Scout program. I guess 45 years experience in the program counts for nothing if one thing is changed. Maybe we ought to design robots to run our troops and packs.

[dsteele]

Perhaps it may kick-start things if I delve a bit into my memory and what I've heard.

 

In case you didn't know, I've been kicking around in the Boy Scouts of America for several years. Here is a brief list of what used to be heresy and forbidden in the BS of A that is now not only permitted, but encouraged on some level:

 

Cub Scout Camping

Tiger Cubs wearing neckerchiefs

Tiger Cubs being part of the pack

Two deep leadership (wasn't around when I was a kid.)

Youth Protection Training for youth and adult (unheard of in 1973)

National Youth Leadership Training (new and current syllabus)

Wood Badge for the 21st Century

 

 

My point is that changes come and changes get adopted as status quo then changes go.

 

I am NOT saying that we should play with the programs of the BSA willy-nilly. I am saying that looking at things in a different light is good and that changes should be suggested within the system.

 

I think that "When did it actually work?" is a perfectly valid question and am interested in how, why and when you decided to try something new if it worked.

 

I would suggest, however, that you have a pretty good reason for why you departed from the norm . . . just to appease the old timers.

 

Unc.

 

(I have a feeling my msn mailbox is going to hear about this post.)

 

UG

[Bob White]

If you wanted to do your own thing why did you join an "organization" that had a national "program" with specific "methods" that you agreed to follow?

 

The BSA doesn't need robots to have good leaders. You have to be able to think to lead. What it needs are dedicated volunteers who will deliver the scouting program and not "their own" program.

 

Why is that asking so much?

 

 

 

 

[Its Me]

Its actually a little funny to see Bob White as the first to reply to this thread, and then try to redirect the thread to what he wants to sermonize on in his thread.

 

Here is why Bob White is actually harming this forum. We are not making policy here. We are not an authoritative body. We are discussing (some anyway) the highs and lows of scouting. The what-ifs are exactly what should be discussed here. Bob White openly admits he has no patience for many ideas on this forum. But tolerance would be a better word. Bob's intolerance for any dissention, intolerance for any outside the box thinking and intolerance for those who don't think like he does, cannot be checked. Bob is compelled to immediately dismiss the person or hurl insults. If we can't "what-if" or look in a critical manner at programs or policies that could be changed on this open public forum then where should it be discussed? In Bob White's mind it should never be discussed. You what-ifers should just leave scouting.

 

Bob here is one thing you and I will agree on. I am glad you are not involved with our pack.

 

 

 

 

[eagle90]

Well said, It's Me!

[Bob White]

Forget about appeasing old-timers it's not their program. You should care about giving Scouts the program they were promised.

 

When the program has changed it was the BSA that changed it. They do it through study, application, and controlled testing. You just can't have everyone doing their own version and have any consistent, expected, results.

 

I get called arrogant for saying stick to the program. The arrogance is in the individuals who think they know how to run a youth program better than the BSA. That's arrogance. The people who ignore what is in the Boy's handbooks and do what they want because it's "their" unit, that's arrogance. The same people who can't keep a single unit healthy for 5-years think they know better than an organization that has lasted nearly 100.

 

Who cares if you have 10 years, 45, or 80 years experience? My backpack has 27 years of experience in scouting, and it wouldn't make a very good scout leader. If what you have done over the years isn't leading the BSA Scouting program then all you have is experience wearing the uniform, I have hangers that can do that.

 

District Volunteers spend 80% of their time cleaning up the messes that the geniuses who do their own thing create. Most the threads on this board deal with solving problems created by leaders not following the program.

 

Next explain to me why anyone wearing the wreath of service isn't saying the same thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

It's Me

 

Everyone gets involved in this board for their own reasons. I got involved after lurking for several weeks and seeing all the misinformation that was being given about the BSA program. Other posters using their "experience" as a licence to ignore the truth and perpetuate folklore, gossip, and misrepresntations of the Scouting program.

 

I got involved for one reason. To say "here are facts, here are books or the training that you will find them in". I have never said here is "my way" as some others do. I have always said "here is the scouting program, here is how it works, I tried it and it works, I have helped others learn it and it works. The program works"

 

You want to discuss other methods. My question is, if the program works why do you need to something else?

 

If you can't get it to work for you but others have, why not ask "How can I do it better" rather than "how can I change it"? That's what I don't get.

 

I am very patient ant tolerant and willing to help others who want to know how to deliver a real scouting program. I will and do spend whatever time with them they want or need. I will llend them resourses, equipment, go to their place, have them come to mine, whatever they want. So my intolerance is limited to the imposters who wear the uniform but don't take or use the training. Who break the promise of scouting made to kids by changing the program to what some so arrogantly say "here is the way I do it in MY unit"

 

You wnat to do your own program fine! Get your own uniform, make up your own name for the group and knock yourself out. Maybe you will be trustworthy and follow a program better there. Maybe you will be loyal, and keep your new promise to the kids in that program, because you do not seem to want to do it in this one or you wouldn't be spending time changing it.

 

[Backpacker]

Bob,

 

First you had your own thread to spout your nonsense and the people left you. So what do you do now, come in and disrupt this one. You don't get it Bob, many in here are tired of your same old rhetoric and could care less what you think about them or their program. So why don't you and Trailpounder have your own thread and leave everyone else alone. In case you still do not get it Bob you do not control this forum or are qualified to criticise anyone else.

 

Trailpounder,

After reading your posts for months now I haven't seen you give one original thought of your own ever. I know you love to jump in on Bobs coat tails, but never share anything but your prejudices.

[Bob White]

Backpacker what is so hard about changing the program and making it work? It's easy.

 

You could play video games the entire time. The kids would show up in crowds, they would have a ball, you would be their hero and it still wouldn't be scouting.

 

You could play basketball the entire time, the kids would show up they could learn teamwork, fitness, they'd have a great time and it still wouldn't be scouting.

 

You could be in charge, make all the decisions, go neat places, wear a perfect uniform, set all the rules you want, and it still wouldn't be scouting.

 

By the way where are all the people sharing their great successes in Scouting by not Scouting? They have had plenty of time to post? Heck Backpacker where are yours? Where are Its Me's? You both took the time to attack me yet neither of you bothered to respond to the question.

 

Even Zahnada didn't answer his own question. Eagle90 doesn't want robots so he responds exactly like you and It's me rather than give an example he attacks me, wow what a bunch of free thinkers you are.

 

Where are all these great "new" methods?

 

[LovetoCamp]

I know when I start hearing, "Independent thought", "Free thinkers", "Intolerance" and "my right to dissent" all being thrown around, there must be some college boys arguing. Bob White sure isn't stopping any of you from posting or stopping any of you from voicing your opinions. You all got bent out of shape when he disagreed with you, well isn't that too bad. The ones being intolerant of dissent, and trying to stifle the other side of an opinion are you three. Kinda funny ain't it? Whenever you people can't defend your position you resort to being mean and hostile. You ARE exactly what you say you OPPOSE. That's a hypocrite.

 

Prejudices. Everybody has some. Except maybe hypocrites. I have this preconceived opinion about tree-hugging extremists, .........they're nitwits.

[Zahnada]

Well, anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread...

 

As some of you know, I've been very active with JLTC here for many years. The course always followed BSA's program "by the book" doing everything word for word. It was like this for quite some time and nobody ever questioned it because it was always much easier just to present the BSA course and assume it was working. Then a friend and I decided to start actively evaluating the success of the course and we discovered that the boys attending were not only not having much fun, they were hardly learing anything. The course was too class-heavy with not enough activities that solidified understanding. Concepts weren't presented in conjunction with activities in a manner logical to boys.

 

So we spent the summer and much of the next year pouring over the course guide and finally ripping it up and redesigning the course page by page. Everything got moved around, activities were added, classes were cut for length. We kept the 11 Skills of Leadership, but we trimmed much of the fat from them so that certain key points were easier to remember. I won't get into the details of what the new course looked like (if you're interested, send me a PM), but we instituted the basic idea that for each skill, there would first be a learning experience, then a class that would refer back to the experience, then application of the skill.

 

We had some pretty strict evaluation of the course for our own purposes. Certainly, we've finetuned over the years, but on the whole, boys were having a blast. They also walked away from the course remembering and utilizing more leadership and scouting skills than before. It was so successful that home troop scoutmasters and even parents could tell the difference.

 

To make a long story short, I don't believe anything made by man is perfect. The BSA program is pretty darned close though. However, we can't just close our eyes and blindly follow it without constantly evaluating "Is this working? Is there a better way?" I think often, we will find that there is not a better way (which is why responses to this thread that are on topic are understandably low). But scouting has not reached perfection yet.

 

And now BSA is gearing up to release a new Junior Leader Training. Although we have had great success with our version, we will definitely give the new one its chance "by the book."

[Bob White]

And for the past two and half years the BSA using professionals in the fields of of education, human behavior, and ledership development along with a select group of unit leaders from across the country evaluated, revised, tested, trained course directors, developed ne syllabii and released teh NAtional Juior Leader Development Tarining course rplacing the old JLTC. Which by the way has only a few of the 11 leadership skills resting heavily on team development and situational leadership skills. This way a scout who has oarticipated in NYLDT and adults who have participated in Wood Badge for the 21st Century will have a similar understanding and approach

 

It even allows local councils to rearrange components to fit local needs.

 

So will the scouts you serve get the old course re-worked by a couple of guys in the coouncil, or the new national training course that experts developed over the last two and half years?

[Zahnada]

Bob, please read all my post before you criticize.

 

Quoted from myself, "And now BSA is gearing up to release a new Junior Leader Training. Although we have had great success with our version, we will definitely give the new one its chance "by the book.""