Early published comment from West regarding the Klan.

[skeptic]

Now, this is surely interesting, and perhaps something of what the public today might wish to note.

" Chief Scout Executive James E. West visited Houston in late January 1923. The following quotes are from Jan 23-24, 1923 Houston Chronicle articles. The Ku Klux Klan was very much in the national headlines. While he does not explicitly mention the Klan, I believe Mr. West's remarks which follow are directly aimed at the Klan.

"At this time when the spirit of intolerance apparently is gaining such headway in the social life of this great American government I think it would be appropriate for every big daily newspaper in the United States to carry the 12th Scout Law in big headlines so the world might occasionally read it and maybe profit by it."

"The basic law of scoutcraft is that the scout must be reverent to God; faithful in religion and tolerance toward the religious conviction of his fellow scout."

"More than 90 percent of the Boy Scout troops in America can be traced to churches or to the leadership of the churches. We have Catholic Boy Scout troops and we are proud of them. We have Jewish troops and we are proud of them. We take them all -- all religions and creeds -- and weld them into the melting pot of pure Americanism and build them into responsible American citizens."

[yknot]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

Now, this is surely interesting, and perhaps something of what the public today might wish to note.

" Chief Scout Executive James E. West visited Houston in late January 1923. The following quotes are from Jan 23-24, 1923 Houston Chronicle articles. The Ku Klux Klan was very much in the national headlines. While he does not explicitly mention the Klan, I believe Mr. West's remarks which follow are directly aimed at the Klan.

"At this time when the spirit of intolerance apparently is gaining such headway in the social life of this great American government I think it would be appropriate for every big daily newspaper in the United States to carry the 12th Scout Law in big headlines so the world might occasionally read it and maybe profit by it."

"The basic law of scoutcraft is that the scout must be reverent to God; faithful in religion and tolerance toward the religious conviction of his fellow scout."

"More than 90 percent of the Boy Scout troops in America can be traced to churches or to the leadership of the churches. We have Catholic Boy Scout troops and we are proud of them. We have Jewish troops and we are proud of them. We take them all -- all religions and creeds -- and weld them into the melting pot of pure Americanism and build them into responsible American citizens."

It's more likely aimed at anti Catholicism, which was rampant and in the headlines at the time. The Klan was being criticized for its anti Catholic positions. Note he mentions Catholic boy scouts first. 

[Better4itall]

Any chance for a citation for that quote - it's a winner.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Wait, his problem with the Klan was that they were anti-Catholic??

Is that really a correct interpretation? 😱

Is there more that he said that changes the implications here? Because this sounds awful otherwise 🫣

[yknot]

I think the quote and some additional history regarding BSA's early involvement with the Klan can be found here under a thread with the rather problematic name of Just Ku Klux Kluxin Around. It's under scouting history. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by yknot

[skeptic]

I fail to see anything in the quote regarding Mr. West and the Klan.  He is simply suggesting that people might consider the last part of the explanation of the 12th point; Be tolerant of other beliefs.  How do we get to something negative about BSA, West, and so on?  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:43 PM, skeptic said:

How do we get to something negative about BSA, West, and so on?

It's in the topic, so it rests upon the correctness of the implicit claim that the quote is about the KKK. As is that the quote is primarily about Catholicism. Neither is clearly stated in the quote itself.

[skeptic]

The reason I posted it had nothing to do with Catholocim or the KIan.  It has all to do with the fact that even at the time West recogized that the larger society might benefit from the concept of aceptance of thers.  My interpretation, and my current feeling that our society today would do well to adhere to the tenets of the Scouting program.  Other than noting that there are Catholic Scouts and so on, I do not see what you speak of, and he does not only mention Catholics.  ???  I have not been able to locate the larger article, but perhaps someone might, or I still may if my eyes will cooperate with small copies and such.  

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

16 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Other than noting that there are Catholic Scouts and so on, I do not see what you speak of, and he does not only mention Catholics.  ??? 

Well, the super obvious call to moral clarity with respect to the KKK has nothing to do with religion. Surely I don't need to point out that the main ethical problem with the KKK is murder and terrorism.

Their religious preferences are small potatoes in comparison. They certainly had no problems killing non-Catholic Christians, as I understand it, so how sincere it even was seems in question.

[skeptic]

Okay.  We might agree that the basic tenets are something current, and past society might find or have found helpful.  KKK is not a group that should be lionized, for sure.  And religion is personal and BSA suggests we accept that individuality.  It is all ambiguous and likely should remain a family element, ?.  No proof, obviously, but I suspect Mr. West would have been alarmed at some things that have transpired since his death.  Just the same, if we can keep the focus, it is a worthwhile effort on our parts I believe.  I am old and need a nap.  

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

20 hours ago, skeptic said:

Okay.  We might agree that the basic tenets are something current, and past society might find or have found helpful.  KKK is not a group that should be lionized, for sure.  And religion is personal and BSA suggests we accept that individuality.  It is all ambiguous and likely should remain a family element, ?.  No proof, obviously, but I suspect Mr. West would have been alarmed at some things that have transpired since his death.  Just the same, if we can keep the focus, it is a worthwhile effort on our parts I believe.  I am old and need a nap. 

I'll be honest, I don't really understand what you're saying here due to not being sure what being referenced where. I certainly agree that the KKK shouldn't be lionized (or even considered morally neutral), but basic tenets of... The KKK??? Or the BSA? Or the scouting movement as a whole?

Of course religion is personal and the BSA like Western societies in general have no problems with private expressions of religion, but why use the KKK's relatively minor ethics flaw of disapproving of one Christian sect as an example of religious discrimination? Is religious discrimination of Christians even a problem in BSA? It's hard to imagine, so if it is more current and direct examples would be more helpful in that case.

I don't know much about this West guy, so I can't guess what you think he'd disapprove of, other than perhaps things like scouts watching movies over LTE on campouts.

So, I find myself thoroughly confused! What about the original quote did you think that the public would wish to note?

[skeptic]

Of course I refer to the tenets of BSA; that is the whole point of the West quote.  He was speaking of the society at the time of the quote, which as it see also was not as civil as most of us would feel is to be striven.  The tenets are the Oath, The Law, The Motto, and the Slogan, as well as later, after the time of this article/quote, the Outdoor Code.  These make up the foundation of Scouting, and are the major factors in judging Scout Spirit.  

I truly do not understand your confusion over West.  He was the head of BSA for decades and is considered one of the primary men in the history of BSA.  James E. West, Chief Scout Executive, lawyer that worked for the improvement of life for youth, including those outside of BSA.  As far as the Klan is concerned, I only see it as a point of reference in the quote as to what is not in tune with civil society.  Have you read any of the history of BSA?  If not, it might help a bit to do so.  

This is the best I can do to clarify this for you.  Society would work more smoothly with the concept embraced by Scout Spirit.  West was speaking to that, and the Klan had nothing directly to do with it, but they were a major problem at the period from from which this is taken, and not just to do with conflict with some religious beliefs of the time.  Hopefully it is now a little clearer than basic mud.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by skeptic

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

Hopefully it is now a little clearer than basic mud.

Yes, thank you!

I am not familiar with West because I wasn't a scout in the US. I'll Google him. My assumption was that something about him personally and/or this particular quote that set him apart from general scouting values was your point, since your post focused on him as a person, but that society would work so much better as well as prevent problems like the KKK is everyone practiced scouting values makes perfect sense!

[skeptic]

44 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Yes, thank you!

I am not familiar with West because I wasn't a scout in the US. I'll Google him. My assumption was that something about him personally and/or this particular quote that set him apart from general scouting values was your point, since your post focused on him as a person, but that society would work so much better as well as prevent problems like the KKK is everyone practiced scouting values makes perfect sense!

Glad we got on the same page.  Many feel that West made BSA work because he organized it and also was lawyer that worked to overcome early issues.  Since he was an orphan and had had a really hard upbringing, he brought his perspecitves as a boy to the work as well, championing youth in the early days.  He worked with Teddy Roosevelt to bring some protection to children in the workplace, among other things.  But he also was a taskmaster, and he clashed with both Seton and Beard in the earlier developmental period, though they found a way to compromise much of the time.  Oh that our clown Congress might do that.  Sorry if I may have come across as grumpy; I can do that.  And being old is not an excuse.  After all, that would be non Scouting.