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[DuctTape]

While I agree that the discuss & explain requirements are wayyyy overdone, IMO what should be included is a requirement that the scout conference with the counselor at least twice during the process. One of those conferences must occur prior to completion of "all the other requirements". This could be specific to the mB.

Rationale: so the scout can benefit from the adult association and expertise of the counselor and use the expertise in at least some of the requirements. For example using hiking merit badge, a scout might contact the mB counselor after having done the shorter hikes, but before the 20 miler they must conference with the counselor. This allows for the scout to reflect on the previous hikes with a hiking expert who can help the scout "see" their previous hikes from a different perspective. The counselor can also offer advice and ideas for the future. The scout then completes the 20 miler and has a final conference with the counselor to reflect on that hike and what they did differently etc...

A good counselor will be able to have a reflective conversation with the scout so they benefit from associating with he adult, gleaning knowledge from an expert and growing in their own competency in the the mB.

[yknot]

I feel like I've been writing the same things over and over again for years. Scouting has become way too complicated and too much like homework. It is very adult driven despite what people say about their units being scout led. If our report card is membership then the program has been failing to grab the interest of an awful lot of kids. Adults drive so many of the impediments. Take a recent discussion on mountain biking on another thread. Apparently mountain biking requires special bikes, special trails, specific terrain. I know a lot of kids who think they do mountain biking because they've got a bike and a mountain. To a city kid, biking through a local park is mountain biking. We make things so difficult some times and so not fun and often with the absolute best of intentions but with sad results. 

 

[SSScout]

Free time at camp?  Fun defined by themselves?   Oh the horror of it.....

(With apologies to Paul Simon . . . ) 

  ”I went out camping with my Scout Troop just last week.

 The fun and woods there were everything I seek .

                          But I when I got home and counted noses  I realized…

                        There must be… fifty ways to lose a camper.  Fifty ways to lose a camper….  “”

 

       Just call the roll late, Nate,  Get off to the john, Ron,   Be in a rush,  Gus,   just listen to me….

            A  PL that’s loose, Moose,  string out the hike,  Mike,  Just laugh at that boy, Roy , , , 

And let those Scouts be  !

           

I called my DE up and told him of my woe,  he said he’d meet with me ,

and so to Four Bucks  then we’d go.

            He smiled and shook his head “You’re not the first,” he said,

            “There must be… fifty ways to lose a camper….    Fifty ways to lose a camper….”

 

        Check your Tour Plan, Stan,   run over those names,  Ames,  call the Micky Dee , Lee,  

and calm try to be….

        Reassure mom, Dom,  be cool with the dad,  Vlad ,  get out the cell, Mel,   and call the SE.”

 

And so we called the Council SE on the cell. 

She told us  to not fret,  she’d see what she could tell.

And sure enough, the family called back,  it seemed that…the kid had stayed home with a cold all along..........

So wipe off the brow, Dow,     Have another cup,  Krup,   

smile and cheerful be,  Dee,  

and set your self…. Freee…..

[qwazse]

19 hours ago, yknot said:

A lot of kids don't have any interest in getting to First Class and yet a lot of troops push hard for kids to get it done in the first year. 

I am weary of these imprecise arguments. Exactly how many troops nationwide do this? I can say with certainty that a lot of troops don’t have any advancement timetable for their scouts. The program is precisely what you asked for:

• Core: master first class skills when you may.
• Elective: 130+ MBs at your convenience. Or consider other awards.
• Have fun ASAP.
• Keep physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight in order to help others always — thereby fulfilling duty to God and country, and upholding your honor.

This is the program. Any deviation from it — including FCFY, cold weather camping, adults inspecting uniforms with rulers and calipers, snake handling — is local adaptation not in the handbook.

Then verbosity of advancement requirements has indeed gotten worse. The addition of “silent” MBs  (e.g., pedagogy, a.k.a. the poppycock EDGE method) has not helped. But, to be fair, so has America’s penchant for paperwork. Still, the fact stands: no scout has to check off any requirement until good and ready.

[Eagle1993]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

cold weather camping

I agree it is definitely not a requirement; however, I will say for those of us in colder climates ... it is tough to camp if you are only willing to camp overnight when it is above 40.  That takes out half the year.  I think in my Troop, the concern is that just 3 years ago we had 50+ camping in early Feb and now only 2.  

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

• Core: master first class skills when you may.
• Elective: 130+ MBs at your convenience. Or consider other awards.
• Have fun ASAP.
• Keep physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight in order to help others always — thereby fulfilling duty to God and country, and upholding your honor.

100% agree.   I would love to see this be the clear messaging to parents and Troops.  Unfortunately, I think this message is muddled with too much focus on a binary outcome of scouts with many judging the success on achievement of Eagle.  I'm not sure how many Troops buy into this ... hopefully most follow your summary.

[yknot]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

I am weary of these imprecise arguments. Exactly how many troops nationwide do this? I can say with certainty that a lot of troops don’t have any advancement timetable for their scouts. The program is precisely what you asked for:

• Core: master first class skills when you may.
• Elective: 130+ MBs at your convenience. Or consider other awards.
• Have fun ASAP.
• Keep physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight in order to help others always — thereby fulfilling duty to God and country, and upholding your honor.

This is the program. Any deviation from it — including FCFY, cold weather camping, adults inspecting uniforms with rulers and calipers, snake handling — is local adaptation not in the handbook.

Then verbosity of advancement requirements has indeed gotten worse. The addition of “silent” MBs  (e.g., pedagogy, a.k.a. the poppycock EDGE method) has not helped. But, to be fair, so has America’s penchant for paperwork. Still, the fact stands: no scout has to check off any requirement until good and ready.

Declining membership over the years, which predates the LDS departure and Covid, is a pretty precise argument that the BSA program has not been syncing well with what kids and families want nationwide. What you or I see locally or even regionally varies greatly across the country. There is no BSA oversight to ensure consistency in program delivery. That's part of the problem. And while there is a grain of truth in your deflection that many problematic issues are not in the handbook, BSA's standard operating procedure has been to overlook or enable local interpretations of the handbook. BSA purposefully leaves many areas open to council or unit policy.  

[qwazse]

28 minutes ago, yknot said:

Declining membership over the years, which predates the LDS departure and Covid, is a pretty precise argument that the BSA program has not been syncing well with what kids and families want nationwide. What you or I see locally or even regionally varies greatly across the country. There is no BSA oversight to ensure consistency in program delivery. That's part of the problem. And while there is a grain of truth in your deflection that many problematic issues are not in the handbook, BSA's standard operating procedure has been to overlook or enable local interpretations of the handbook. BSA purposefully leaves many areas open to council or unit policy.  

Deflection? I'm not the one passing the buck on to the BSA. The program is there to work. And scouters need to work it. Three steps:

1. Scouts read the handbook.
2. They decide what to do.
3. Adults provide adequate qualified supervision.

That third step has necessarily become harder as the specifications for "adequate" and "qualified" expanded.

Nevertheless, the program is designed to vary greatly across the country. It is has a core curriculum around which electives can be built in a myriad of ways. And it was designed to be built by local talent, not national policy wonks. Invariably, when someone has asked/demanded National to weigh in (usually because they didn't like how someone in some other troop was performing, sometimes because there was a measurable risk to scouts getting hurt or acres of wilderness burning away) it has discouraged membership.

Anybody who thinks that for a hundred bucks per kid per year gets them national professional supervision has never looked at a church youth program budget.

[yknot]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Deflection? I'm not the one passing the buck on to the BSA. The program is there to work. And scouters need to work it. Three steps:

1. Scouts read the handbook.
2. They decide what to do.
3. Adults provide adequate qualified supervision.

That third step has necessarily become harder as the specifications for "adequate" and "qualified" expanded.

Nevertheless, the program is designed to vary greatly across the country. It is has a core curriculum around which electives can be built in a myriad of ways. And it was designed to be built by local talent, not national policy wonks. Invariably, when someone has asked/demanded National to weigh in (usually because they didn't like how someone in some other troop was performing, sometimes because there was a measurable risk to scouts getting hurt or acres of wilderness burning away) it has discouraged membership.

Anybody who thinks that for a hundred bucks per kid per year gets them national professional supervision has never looked at a church youth program budget.

Those are all defenses of the status quo. Status quo isn't working on multiple levels. It enabled a tragic level of child abuse. It has fostered a steep decline in membership. You can keep saying what you are saying, but it's not a path forward, it's a path toward continued decline. 

[5thGenTexan]

Declining membership...  As much as it pains me to say, I don't think what BSA is offering what is wanted today.

Cub School talks...  A DE or other representative comes in and talks to the kids.  They come out excited they are going to shoot BB Guns, Archery, Fishing, Camping.  The pay their money,,,

The first thing we do is tell em they have these 12 words to memorize and this other oath they gotta memorize and recite it all the time.  Also, go take this online class about how the internet works and then these uncomfortable scenarios in this little book.  We promise we will get to camping and BB Guns and stuff soon.  We promise.   Oh yeah, sorry... we can't shoot BB Guns or a Bow and Arrow unless you pay more money to go to a certain camp where its allowed.  If you can't go there, well sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

Then... we have meetings where we do everything other than fishing or camping, or hiking, or all that other stuff they were promised in that school talk.  And in the infinite wisdom of the BSA has decided that the cost of rewarding all that comes out to about $30 a year when you add up the belt loops and other awards.

Then, we tell all the parents that have absolutely no experience working with kids OR any Scouting experience...  What position do you want to sign up for and help out?

That's when you stop seeing them showing up to any event.   I am not saying any of its right, just my observation of the past 5 years.   

The ones that do stay, I get asked A LOT... "What do I get for that"?  Well, you get the knowledge you just learned that will help you be better next time.  You get to know you did the right thing for someone.  Kids are so used to get getting a sticker, candy, pencil, or whatever, every time they they turn around they are unable to comprehend doing something just because they might learn a skill or something to improve their character.

Once again, I don't believe this and I do hate it, but.... In these times, no one cares about Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, etc.  We live in a very selfish society and I am just not sure it resonates. 

 

I am out of Cubs now, my son just joined the Troop and has earned Scout already because I made him get it done.  My daughter is 2nd Class.  I have to make sure she gets it done too..

1) Scouts Read the Handbook.  No they don't.  IF a Scout manages to find their book and bring it to a meeting its because they need something signed off.  I will say "Most" Scouts are not sitting down and reading the book. 

2) They Decide What to Do.  Once again, no they aren't.  IF they manage to complete some requirements at a meeting and it gets signed off great.  I don't believe there are many Scouts getting home from school and pulling out the handbook and looking for a requirement to knock out.  That would cut into their phone / game time.

3)Adults Provide Adequate Supervision.  Sometimes.  You have Scouters that see the issues above and push the Scouts to do more and then you have Adults with no Scouting experience who do what they know, and sometimes that is running program like a birthday party with uniforms.

 

I am not saying I know the answers.  I try to get my own kids to get others at school to try Scouts, but they both say no one wants to do it.  They are busy with sports and other activities.  I don't know how to instill the importance that the Scout Law and Oath are really a good guideline to live by, and not just something to recite at meetings.  I don't know how to show there is a lot more to Scouts that the flashy things the professionals use to sell it to new families.  I don't even know how to get my own kids to take it upon themselves to put their phones away and get done what needs to get done without pulling teeth.

I keep putting on my uniform and trying though.

[scoutldr]

I am old, and most of my Scouting was done prior to phones and video games.  My 3 grandkids all have the latest iPhones in their hands...one is 10 and the other two are 6.  So we buy the kids phones and games, then bemoan the fact that they won't put them down and do something else?  I have quit asking when they will get involved in Scouts.  They are just not interested in fitting character building into their daily agenda.  Sorry...we have met the enemy and they is us.  

[qwazse]

@yknot and @5thGenTexan, you all are confusing the program with its administration.

If scouts aren’t reading the handbook, they are working from a variance of the program. My scouts read the handbook because I teach them that the first step in teaching a scout skill is reference. If they come to me for a sign-off, I ask if they’ve read the pertinent section. If not, I tell them to come back when they have. No doubt this contributes to half of them taking 2-5 years to advance to 1st class.

I have contacts with property for camping. Our scouts have not made a plan to go there. We don’t go there. We reserve the same camp (maybe a different location on the camp) until they are bored and ask for something different.
This lot loves toying with knots, doing community service, and watercraft on a small flat lake. (I even offered them a Great Lake that’s rarely knows flat. No takers.).

I have kept contact with really capable adults who I’ve watched carefully and have grown to trust. Like the SM’s and Advisors before me, I’ve learned to not suffer fools. BSA has not done me any favors by diminishing the roles of 18-20 year olds, but just enough capable parents keep showing up. But, I view the people I have to work with as a problem with administering a program among post-modern nomads.

Bottom line: our youth are sticking around until they age out. I see no reason to blame the program.

[Eagledad]

11 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Declining membership...  As much as it pains me to say, I don't think what BSA is offering what is wanted today.

Cub School talks...  A DE or other representative comes in and talks to the kids.  They come out excited they are going to shoot BB Guns, Archery, Fishing, Camping.  The pay their money,,,

The first thing we do is tell em they have these 12 words to memorize and this other oath they gotta memorize and recite it all the time.  Also, go take this online class about how the internet works and then these uncomfortable scenarios in this little book.  We promise we will get to camping and BB Guns and stuff soon.  We promise.   Oh yeah, sorry... we can't shoot BB Guns or a Bow and Arrow unless you pay more money to go to a certain camp where its allowed.  If you can't go there, well sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

Then... we have meetings where we do everything other than fishing or camping, or hiking, or all that other stuff they were promised in that school talk.  And in the infinite wisdom of the BSA has decided that the cost of rewarding all that comes out to about $30 a year when you add up the belt loops and other awards.

Then, we tell all the parents that have absolutely no experience working with kids OR any Scouting experience...  What position do you want to sign up for and help out?

That's when you stop seeing them showing up to any event.   I am not saying any of its right, just my observation of the past 5 years.   

The ones that do stay, I get asked A LOT... "What do I get for that"?  Well, you get the knowledge you just learned that will help you be better next time.  You get to know you did the right thing for someone.  Kids are so used to get getting a sticker, candy, pencil, or whatever, every time they they turn around they are unable to comprehend doing something just because they might learn a skill or something to improve their character.

Once again, I don't believe this and I do hate it, but.... In these times, no one cares about Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, etc.  We live in a very selfish society and I am just not sure it resonates. 

 

You’re doing it wrong. As qwazse is so eloquently saying, passion of scouting comes from doing scouting. Growth of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful comes from the experiences of scouting, not from quoting the Scout Law.

If a scout is asking what does he get for that, he probably shouldn’t be doing that because he is not being rewarded with fun. Scouts will eventually learn to recite the Oath and Law after reciting them a hundreds times at a hundred scout activities. Your challenge is getting them to come to those hundred activities.

Barry

[malraux]

12 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

The first thing we do is tell em they have these 12 words to memorize and this other oath they gotta memorize and recite it all the time.  Also, go take this online class about how the internet works and then these uncomfortable scenarios in this little book.  We promise we will get to camping and BB Guns and stuff soon.  We promise.   Oh yeah, sorry... we can't shoot BB Guns or a Bow and Arrow unless you pay more money to go to a certain camp where its allowed.  If you can't go there, well sorry, I don't know what to tell you.

The way it works in my council is that there are 2-3 cub centric events at council properties right after signup to fulfill the promise of camping, BB guns, and smores. It also helps with the less engaged parents because the bigger chunks of the program are run by more engaged volunteers.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

@yknot and @5thGenTexan, you all are confusing the program with its administration.

BSA has not done me any favors by diminishing the roles of 18-20 year olds, but just enough capable parents keep showing up. But, I view the people I have to work with as a problem with administering a program among post-modern nomads.

Bottom line: our youth are sticking around until they age out. I see no reason to blame the program.

Scouting lost phenomenal folks due to the changes in the age policy, All of them feel that BSA disrespected them. Which is really sad because in my experience the 18-20 year olds are better Scouters than the recently crossed over adults because A. they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities already, despite the lack of official training, and B. they were the peers and role models of the Scouts, and they already have the respect of them. In one case the person who aged out would be unable to follow YP policies outside of Scouting since he is still in HS and several of his classmates are involved in Scouting. Since he is not registered, he can contact the Scout anytime needed now.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Scouting lost phenomenal folks due to the changes in the age policy, All of them feel that BSA disrespected them. Which is really sad because in my experience the 18-20 year olds are better Scouters than the recently crossed over adults because A. they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities already, despite the lack of official training, and B. they were the peers and role models of the Scouts, and they already have the respect of them. In one case the person who aged out would be unable to follow YP policies outside of Scouting since he is still in HS and several of his classmates are involved in Scouting. Since he is not registered, he can contact the Scout anytime needed now.

 

I'd really like to see any empirical data that shows the 18-20 y.o. is more of a danger to Scouts.

Without that, I believe the policy should say just one adult over 25 years (yes, 25 years old) to run an outing, with another adult over 18.