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[Eagle94-A1]

Agree with the sentiment that Eagle is becoming to academic. I had a SMC with one of my guys and the topic came up. This is a Life Scout, with only the project and a few MBs to complete. He complained about the MB giveaways at most MBUs, and most online classes he has talked to other about. Just showing up gets you the MB in some cases.

For him, it is the adventure that keep him: Cycling, whitewater, blackpowder, etc. He plans to earn Eagle, he's way to close to stop, but feels it does not have the same value as it did when his dad and I got ours. And I agree. 

[fred8033]

The really hard ones are the scouts that want to get something out of the MB topic and are less concerned with the badge.  IMHO, those are the ones that we really should be targeting. 

A good example was my son wanted to learn more about computer security, maintenance, etc .  It was so painful, "make sure you fill out" work book references all the time, etc.   It provided ZERO value to him.  Sure he got the badge.  BUT, it turned him off on that pursuit and really poisoned the MB perception.  

A good example is horsemanship MB.  Almost every scout that signed up for horsemanship just wanted to be around horses.  Almost always turned out well even though they ended shoveling a lot of ... stuff.  Always great stories after ... including their tent-mate making them keep their shoes outside the tent. 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagle1993]

The problem is with Citizenship in the Society and a ton of focus on online merit badge classes ... BSA is headed in the opposite direction.  There are a few kids that seem to love this new direction and soak up these online merit badge classes but won't camp outside often (just enough to advance).  

My klondike experience was sad.  Basically a day event only.  Camp was empty at night.  Yes, some of that is Covid ... but the momentum of an outdoor program is fading.  Even the Troops who cabin camp left.  Older scouts in my Troop told the younger ones that camping out in the cold is "miserable".  We had 50+ scouts & adults camping just 3 years ago.  400+ across all Troops.  Now, empty ... probably less than 50 across the entire district.

My question ... does BSA see the future as online MBs, day events and heavy classroom based Eagle requirements OR outdoor, open play to gain skills (and thus advance).

[Jameson76]

6 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

My question ... does BSA see the future as online MBs, day events and heavy classroom based Eagle requirements OR outdoor, open play to gain skills (and thus advance).

From a risk perspective they love the online, day events, heavy classroom.  No outings no YPT issues of chance of an injury.  Also this meets the STEM (STEAM / whatever) that some feel they youth want.

Agree that we are now dealing with kids who do not play and roam outdoors.  We did not do a biking outing as so few of the younger Scouts rode (or knew how) to ride a bike.  It is very hard, especially for those of us that grew up in the old old days of scouting.

Back then

• Second Class - Take 3 hikes on a different day, not less than 5 miles each
• Second Class - Follow another scout that knows you are stalking him fore 1/2 mile without being seen
• Second Class - build a fire with no more than 2 matches, cook a meal without utensils
• First Class - point out 5 constellations
• First Class - send and receive 20 words using morse code
• First Class - on one of your overnight campouts carry your gear on your back for at least 1 1/2 miles

 

[Eagle1993]

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

From a risk perspective they love the online, day events, heavy classroom.  No outings no YPT issues of chance of an injury.  Also this meets the STEM (STEAM / whatever) that some feel they youth want.

Agree that we are now dealing with kids who do not play and roam outdoors.  We did not do a biking outing as so few of the younger Scouts rode (or knew how) to ride a bike.  It is very hard, especially for those of us that grew up in the old old days of scouting.

Back then

• Second Class - Take 3 hikes on a different day, not less than 5 miles each
• Second Class - Follow another scout that knows you are stalking him fore 1/2 mile without being seen
• Second Class - build a fire with no more than 2 matches, cook a meal without utensils
• First Class - point out 5 constellations
• First Class - send and receive 20 words using morse code
• First Class - on one of your overnight campouts carry your gear on your back for at least 1 1/2 miles

 

It's interesting.  I had a conversation with a dad at Klondike and he said Scouts has become too easy.  He thinks Scouts would actually have more members if we increased the outdoor requirements (such as the ones you listed above).  More hiking, camping requirements.  I'm not sure if it would increase membership, but I think it could provide more value to those who are members.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

30 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

It's interesting.  I had a conversation with a dad at Klondike and he said Scouts has become too easy.  He thinks Scouts would actually have more members if we increased the outdoor requirements (such as the ones you listed above).  More hiking, camping requirements.  I'm not sure if it would increase membership, but I think it could provide more value to those who are members.

 

Does anyone remember when they  went from 3 camp outs to be First Class to 6 camp outs to be First Class, and folks were so ticked off that about the increase that 19 months later they change it back to 3 camp outs? January 1, 2016 was when 6 camp outs were required for First Class. August 1, 2017 was when they changed it back?

[Jameson76]

45 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Does anyone remember when they  went from 3 camp outs to be First Class to 6 camp outs to be First Class, and folks were so ticked off that about the increase that 19 months later they change it back to 3 camp outs? January 1, 2016 was when 6 camp outs were required for First Class. August 1, 2017 was when they changed it back?

I always am intrigued by the discussions on Scouts having trouble getting 20 nights camping, and why oh why can they only count 1 summer camp.  That seems to be such an easy thing, summer camp (6 nights), that leaves about 5 nights camping annually over 3 years.  And you can include ANY camping you do. 

The goal is not to check boxes, goal is to have fun.  If Scouts don't want to go on outings, figure out why, not game the system

[yknot]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

It's interesting.  I had a conversation with a dad at Klondike and he said Scouts has become too easy.  He thinks Scouts would actually have more members if we increased the outdoor requirements (such as the ones you listed above).  More hiking, camping requirements.  I'm not sure if it would increase membership, but I think it could provide more value to those who are members.

 

I think BSA needs to do what other youth organizations have done and let kids follow a track that matches their interests. Love camping? Work towards the Outdoors Eagle. Love science? Work towards the STEM Eagle. There aren't enough troops around to find one that matches interests -- the kids ought to be able to control their own destiny a little more within a troop I think. For all our talk about scout run, there are an awful lot of troops that instead reflect adult opinions on what a 'true' scout is or does. You could come up with a common core but then let them branch out in tracks. Or at least that's one idea. Scouting needs to really take a good hard look at what kids want to do because while these declining turnouts are sad they are also sort of a report card on the traditional scout program and BSA should be paying attention. Better marketing isn't going to get kids to like cold weather camping more. . 

[qwazse]

7 hours ago, yknot said:

I think BSA needs to do what other youth organizations have done and let kids follow a track that matches their interests. Love camping? Work towards the Outdoors Eagle. Love science? Work towards the STEM Eagle. There aren't enough troops around to find one that matches interests -- the kids ought to be able to control their own destiny a little more within a troop I think. For all our talk about scout run, there are an awful lot of troops that instead reflect adult opinions on what a 'true' scout is or does. You could come up with a common core but then let them branch out in tracks. Or at least that's one idea. Scouting needs to really take a good hard look at what kids want to do because while these declining turnouts are sad they are also sort of a report card on the traditional scout program and BSA should be paying attention. Better marketing isn't going to get kids to like cold weather camping more. . 

You’ve got it wrong.

The “common core” is First Class Rank. Then one could branch out and pursue Eagle, STEM, or some other award. That’s the program we already have.

In none of that, is cold weather camping required.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

You’ve got it wrong.

The “common core” is First Class Rank. Then one could branch out and pursue Eagle, STEM, or some other award. That’s the program we already have.

In none of that, is cold weather camping required.

A lot of kids don't have any interest in getting to First Class and yet a lot of troops push hard for kids to get it done in the first year. 

[MattR]

What I liked about that chapter I linked to was that the author has a very clear, concise description of the program. It is as close to fun with a purpose as I've ever seen. The kids have fun making up games and playing them. The purpose is they learn people skills and imagination. I think the BSA could borrow those ideas heavily. That model is really close to what younger scouts want. Just make it outdoors. Adapt the safety so, for example, if a scout wants to play with knives they first have to learn knife safety. When they realize the blade is no longer cutting it's a great time for them to learn how to really sharpen a blade. There is no need for requirements. Requirements are an external motivation whereas playing is all about internal motivation. When I play with my camera it's never about taking a photo that might impress anyone. It's not even to impress myself. It's just to see what happens. It's the best way to learn.

Older scouts are a bit trickier. Some will be happy guiding younger scouts. Some will be happy doing campouts. Some will like the external motivation that a rank requires. However, none of them enjoy any requirements that can be done over zoom. When I was a scout I was driven by requirements that looked like a challenge. Cooking for your patrol seemed daunting. A 5 mile backpacking trip is still a memory I won't forget. Describe and discuss never existed, I never did it, or I have completely erased it from my memory.

14 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

It's interesting.  I had a conversation with a dad at Klondike and he said Scouts has become too easy.  He thinks Scouts would actually have more members if we increased the outdoor requirements (such as the ones you listed above).  More hiking, camping requirements.  I'm not sure if it would increase membership, but I think it could provide more value to those who are members.

 

I agree. I may quibble that it's not so much too easy as too boring. The issue for me is the detailed requirements that get in the way of having fun while playing. The requirements for eagle should fit on a single sheet of paper. The Camping merit badge has 10 requirements, many with sub requirements, but if you flatten that tree there are 36 requirements. How about just do 50 nights of camping? First aid is do a wilderness first aid course. Swimming is swim 1000 yards. Biking is ride 250 miles of which one ride is at least 50 miles. Cooking is cook at least 21 meals that will feed at least 2 people with 3 of those that will feed at least 8. If you cook 21 meals, ride your bike 250 miles, do wilderness first aid, swim 1000 yards and camp 50 nights, you will learn something good. That's all that matters. Get rid of Personal Fitness, all the citizenship MBs, Family Life and all the others that tend to get done within 3 months of turning 18. The scouts remember none of it and it's just a time sink at MBU and summer camp. As for summer camp, it should be doing fun skills to improve those skills. No merit badges or requirements.

For the scouts that really like the classroom environment, they need to be broken of that habit in scouts or at least not catered to. By catering to the zoom crowd the kids that want to do outdoors are pushed away. It's really difficult to get backpacking permits in national parks because there are so many people that love the outdoors. A lot of them were never scouts. A childhood friend of my son is a river raft guide, spends a fair amount of time in Costa Rica doing that, teaches snow boarding, has a wilderness EMT certification and can easily carry everything he needs in a backpack for months at a time. He has an adventurous spirit. He does not like schoolwork. He was never interested in scouts as a kid. That's the kind of kid that scouts should encourage.

[Eagle94-A1]

22 minutes ago, MattR said:

 The issue for me is the detailed requirements that get in the way of having fun while playing. The requirements for eagle should fit on a single sheet of paper. ...Cooking is cook at least 21 meals that will feed at least 2 people with 3 of those that will feed at least 8. 

Agree. My middle son has had issues because of the paper pushing some of the paperpushing requirements for some of the active ones. Right now it the trail cooking requirements for Cooking.

 

25 minutes ago, MattR said:

For the scouts that really like the classroom environment, they need to be broken of that habit in scouts or at least not catered to. By catering to the zoom crowd the kids that want to do outdoors are pushed away. It's really difficult to get backpacking permits in national parks because there are so many people that love the outdoors. 

Two quotes come to mind with this. 1. "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." and 2. "SCOUTING IS OUTING!" In the 1970s, BSA took tried to take the outing out of Scouting to the point that between 1972 and  1979, you could earn Eagle without a single night of camping. BSA took a nosedive in membership, and Bill Hillcourt had to come out of retirement to save the BSA. Zoom MB classes are wrong.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

A lot of kids don't have any interest in getting to First Class and yet a lot of troops push hard for kids to get it done in the first year. 

That's because back in 1989, someone equated earning First Class and retention. Two factors that were never taken into account were 1) Activity level of troops and 2) LDS 11 year old patrols and mandatory registration in Scouts.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

A lot of kids don't have any interest in getting to First Class and yet a lot of troops push hard for kids to get it done in the first year. 

... dang ... I'll go down every tangent that is opened to me.  ... Troops push hard for first class first year because they are taught that ... and because they need to compete with the other troops in the same city.  Parents want Eagle scouts.  Troop shopping provides the wrong incentive to troops that dements the program.  If you want your troop to thrive over the years and there is more than one troop near by, you better push everyone to advance.  

[fred8033]

42 minutes ago, MattR said:

... Cooking is cook at least 21 meals that will feed at least 2 people with 3 of those that will feed at least 8. ... 

@Eagle94-A1 had a good response ... 

Look at the last 20 years.  The rank requirements have more than doubled in words.  Maybe triple.  ...  IMHO, split the words.  Keep a simple statement for the scout to evaluate what the rank requirements are.   Put in the adult leader "<year> requirements" book the details that a good program would teach.  Leave the painfully long wording for the adults to think about what they can do better.  Let the scout scout focus on a simple achievable program.