Chapter 11 Announced - Part 8 - TCC Term Sheet & Plan Confirmation

[skeptic]

10 hours ago, PaleRider said:

What I can't understand is how can adults run a program and have knowledge of kids being abused and they turn a blind eye on it.Put a name in a book out the book as far back in the filing cabinet as they can.Kick the pedophile out and not call the law.Thats where I'm hung up at. I just can't understand what kind of people do that. Cause I can say without a doubt if the tables were turned and I was the adult that had knowledge of the abuse I would be kicking somebody's ass all the way to the jailhouse.

They didn't care back then and today we are nothing more than a claim number to them. I haven't figured out who outside of Scouts I will have to worry the hell out of to keep the BSA in check about them doing any and everything in their power to stop this from happening to any other kids.I don't want anyone to have to go through pure hell until their 45 -50 years old before they even think about figuring out what's what.I thought about writing congress about this but it will only fall on deaf ears.If anyone has ideas on who I can worry the hell out of to make it happen please share your thoughts.

BECAUSE THIS HAS TO STOP.

In this case, you need to paint with a broader brush, one that includes most of the past attitudes of society at the times.  Family fears of embarrassment or harm to the victims, officials that did not comprehend the problem or were fearful of law suits for slander and such due to the often vague or difficult to prove cases, and other issues beat to death on these pages already,  

And yes, it does need to be addressed, but far beyond the BSA, as they are only the iceberg's tip compared to the darkness lingering in the larger societal shadows and past.  Sadly, too many cannot fathom the idea that BSA was and is part of the larger communities then, and still is.  As such, they will never completely eliminate these things, but they can do a better job at flushing them out and then doing what is right, even if local authorities of community leaders try to avoid it due to a perpetrator's money or political position.  And, as has been noted in the case of the youth from the AF unit, parents must cooperate if timely prosecution is to happen.  We are hearing on this board the voices of survivors who likely had no real voice in the trauma at the time it occurred, and who were made victims over again by whomever may have not responded for them for whatever reason.  

    But, I personally do not see evidence of the BSA somehow  purposely allowing or plotting abuse.  I see, again people with misplaced local agendas to not harm or embarrass the organization, and simply a hard to comprehend, based on today's views, societal response.  And I still also see BSA as a positive option for youth development today, and one that overwhelmingly has had positive effects on the vast majority of its members.  

     This view does not mean that I now or ever have condoned the terrible abuses that have taken place.  We just need to be sure we are using cleaner and more healthful bath water.  

[MYCVAStory]

10 hours ago, PaleRider said:

I haven't figured out who outside of Scouts I will have to worry the hell out of to keep the BSA in check about them doing any and everything in their power to stop this from happening to any other kids.

Absolutely.  The new YP changes compared to the original settlement are on a link at the top of the tccbsa.com website.  It might make you feel a little more at ease.  That's a big emphasis on "might."  The reality is that there are pedophiles out there and they will always look for opportunities.  What the BSA needs to do is have a culture of protection running throughout it AND the public able to know if it's working.  The new settlement allows for a mechanism where parents will be able to call and find out if a troop is safe before and during involvement.  As well, mandatory reporter laws exist where they never did.  Will it all make a difference?  I don't know, and the amount of youth on youth abuse that we may have never realized is really an issue but a LOT of Survivors are going to be on local Council boards and others will be making those calls to see if anything has changed.  Transparency is critical and the BSA owes it to the public and especially Survivors to prove that it deserves to exist after what it did, and is now doing, to every Survivor. 

[clbkbx]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:27 PM, fred8033 said:

Is "independent review" a euphanism for the victim's right to bring their case to court?

Hi @fred8033, Article XIII of the TDP lays out the IR process. My understanding is that it is like bringing the case to court, but under a retired judge, not an actual court. (Not sure where I read this, but heard this may be a complication because insurance companies can say they are not compelled to pay as it's not a real court.)

Having watched the TCC video and reread the TDP section, I still don't see that the IR is 1) only appropriate for pre-1976 claims, 2) for high value claimants only and 3) meant to pressure non-settling entities to settle, which is how it was explained to me. I sent a follow up to my attorney to try to get clarification.

I'm wondering if it's because all the entities I could sue are settling as part of the Plan (whereas, pre-1976 cases apparently have a different threshold... I don't fully understand this). I.e., the IR analysis condition is post Plan acceptance. 

[johnsch322]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

And, as has been noted in the case of the youth from the AF unit, parents must cooperate if timely prosecution is to happen. 

I think what should be noted here is that John L Brady was able to molest and rape 11 plus boys in a short period of time. As far as the families go no one except themselves knows what pressure was put on them to not prosecute from the BSA.  And I also know that he had an accomplice which would have come out if every boy was interviewed to find out if they also had been molested and raped.  And this is just one perpetrator. I know this firsthand it is not supposition or speculation.

 

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

But, I personally do not see evidence of the BSA somehow  purposely allowing or plotting abuse. 

By not following thru properly and protecting youth, not pushing for punishment a case could easily be made that they purposefully allowed it.  On top of that they purposefully withheld the files that they had and it took the Oregon to compel them to release some of those files.

Edited February 27, 2022 by johnsch322

[ThenNow]

6 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

Absolutely.  The new YP changes compared to the original settlement are on a link at the top of the tccbsa.com website.  It might make you feel a little more at ease.  That's a big emphasis on "might."  The reality is that there are pedophiles out there and they will always look for opportunities.  What the BSA needs to do is have a culture of protection running throughout it AND the public able to know if it's working.  The new settlement allows for a mechanism where parents will be able to call and find out if a troop is safe before and during involvement.  As well, mandatory reporter laws exist where they never did.  Will it all make a difference?  I don't know, and the amount of youth on youth abuse that we may have never realized is really an issue but a LOT of Survivors are going to be on local Council boards and others will be making those calls to see if anything has changed.  Transparency is critical and the BSA owes it to the public and especially Survivors to prove that it deserves to exist after what it did, and is now doing, to every Survivor. 

Amen to all that with a footnote. The Youth Protection Committee called for in the new YP terms is a critical component in the go forward world of BSA YP. I think it's not only critical to the BSA, but important as a model for other organizations. Why? Because at least half of its members must be BSA abuse survivors. They will have a hand in every aspect and phase of BSA YP. I'm hoping and praying that the members put forth by the TCC and SWG will be tenacious, thoughtful, capable, detail-oriented and united in their voice. If this all doesn't come tumbling down like so many Jenga towers, watch that group. Along with transparency, reporting, a culture passionate for YP and survivors on boards, the strong survivor representation on the YPC is a very, very good thing. They will be the pack of watchdogs in the house.

Edited February 27, 2022 by ThenNow
Oops.

[PaleRider]

6 hours ago, skeptic said:

In this case, you need to paint with a broader brush, one that includes most of the past attitudes of society at the times.  Family fears of embarrassment or harm to the victims, officials that did not comprehend the problem or were fearful of law suits for slander and such due to the often vague or difficult to prove cases, and other issues beat to death on these pages already,  

And yes, it does need to be addressed, but far beyond the BSA, as they are only the iceberg's tip compared to the darkness lingering in the larger societal shadows and past.  Sadly, too many cannot fathom the idea that BSA was and is part of the larger communities then, and still is.  As such, they will never completely eliminate these things, but they can do a better job at flushing them out and then doing what is right, even if local authorities of community leaders try to avoid it due to a perpetrator's money or political position.  And, as has been noted in the case of the youth from the AF unit, parents must cooperate if timely prosecution is to happen.  We are hearing on this board the voices of survivors who likely had no real voice in the trauma at the time it occurred, and who were made victims over again by whomever may have not responded for them for whatever reason.  

    But, I personally do not see evidence of the BSA somehow  purposely allowing or plotting abuse.  I see, again people with misplaced local agendas to not harm or embarrass the organization, and simply a hard to comprehend, based on today's views, societal response.  And I still also see BSA as a positive option for youth development today, and one that overwhelmingly has had positive effects on the vast majority of its members.  

     This view does not mean that I now or ever have condoned the terrible abuses that have taken place.  We just need to be sure we are using cleaner and more healthful bath water.  

They keep a damn book with names and hid them.And still today are fighting to keep them all from being released.Here is my bigger paint brush for 40 damn years my life has been pure hell because those suit and ties for over 100 years did nothing but protect them and the abusers not us.Now unless you were abused don't preach to me.You haven't a damn clue as to how I'm feeling.Sobyou can take up for these clowns all you want to.BUT THE FACT IS THEY FAILED US.THEY PREACHED TO US WHAT A BOY SCOUT REPRESENTS WHILE THEY DID NOTHING TO PROTECT US. NO NEED FOR YOU TO REPLY BECAUSE IM DONE WITH THIS CONVERSATION.AND IF I RUFFLED YALLS FEATHERS TO BAD CAUSE EVERYTHING IVE SAID IS THE TRUTH.

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 minutes ago, PaleRider said:

They keep a damn book with names and hid them.And still today are fighting to keep them all from being released.Here is my bigger paint brush for 40 damn years my life has been pure hell because those suit and ties for over 100 years did nothing but protect them and the abusers not us.Now unless you were abused don't preach to me.You haven't a damn clue as to how I'm feeling.Sobyou can take up for these clowns all you want to.BUT THE FACT IS THEY FAILED US.THEY PREACHED TO US WHAT A BOY SCOUT REPRESENTS WHILE THEY DID NOTHING TO PROTECT US. NO NEED FOR YOU TO REPLY BECAUSE IM DONE WITH THIS CONVERSATION.AND IF I RUFFLED YALLS FEATHERS TO BAD CAUSE EVERYTHING IVE SAID IS THE TRUTH.

No ruffled feathers here, brother.

I am heartened by your righteous indignation and want you to stay and keep giving us that perspective. 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I am heartened by your righteous indignation and want you to stay and keep giving us that perspective. 

Does that mean we to start a war of words with each other?  Different interpretations of facts exist that reach different opinions.  Either this channel is about the legalise of the bankruptcy or devolves into a yelling fest.

Some people have been thru hell because of the past.  Others have not.  One group can bring their pain.  The other can bring a moderating view.  Each INDIVIDUAL has a right to their interpretation of what happened.  

Out of respect for the hard work of the moderators and the purpose of this channel, I've been avoiding posting.  

Can we keep this channel to the bankruptcy proceedings?

Edited February 28, 2022 by fred8033

[yknot]

29 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Does that mean we to start a war of words with each other?  Different interpretations of facts exist that reach different opinions.  Either this channel is about the legalise of the bankruptcy or devolves into a yelling fest.

Some people have been thru hell because of the past.  Others have not.  One group can bring their pain.  The other can bring a moderating view.  Each INDIVIDUAL has a right to their interpretation of what happened.  

Out of respect for the hard work of the moderators and the purpose of this channel, I've been avoiding posting.  

Can we keep this channel to the bankruptcy proceedings?

I don't see it that way. People who haven't been through hell cannot relate. Why don't we all just stop poking back at people who have come here for help. Many have had experiences most of us cannot relate to at all unless we've been in combat or lost a child. These are devastating life experiences. Is it really that critical to try and make a point on this piddling forum to someone who may be holding on by a thread? Where is the scout honor in that? No one else in scouting has listened to them. For whatever reason, the universe handed the forum this role and if two people find some healing in it, isn't that more important than trying to defend our dysfunctional BSA? Just let it be man. 

[fred8033]

5 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't see it that way. People who haven't been through hell cannot relate. Why don't we all just stop poking back at people who have come here for help. Many have had experiences most of us cannot relate to at all unless we've been in combat or lost a child. These are devastating life experiences. Is it really that critical to try and make a point on this piddling forum to someone who may be holding on by a thread? Where is the scout honor in that? No one else in scouting has listened to them. For whatever reason, the universe handed the forum this role and if two people find some healing in it, isn't that more important than trying to defend our dysfunctional BSA? Just let it be man. 

I want to reply, but I don't want to be beat up over my thoughts and my opinions.  They are clearly not welcome here in a forum created for scouters to discuss scouting. 

 

[johnsch322]

9 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I want to reply, but I don't want to be beat up over my thoughts and my opinions.  They are clearly not welcome here in a forum created for scouters to discuss scouting. 

 

You can reply and the replies to you should be civil. That is what it should be and I know that at times my own emotions get the better of me. The unfortunate fact in all of this is Child Sexual Abuse has been a part of scouting for a very long time. The survivors who are posting were scouters so these posts are relevant to the forum. 
Because of the bankruptcy a lot of old wounds have been reopened and some of us are less equipped to handle the pain. For me personally it is posters who try to whitewash with wide brushes. For others it could be something else. It may be hard for those whose scouting experience was nothing but good times and it may seem like you are under constant assault from survivors who are trying to deal with issues arising from their scouting experience but I think there will come a time we won’t need this forum to handle our broken psyche. Hopefully we won’t have succumbed to our pain. 

[fred8033]

7 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

You can reply and the replies to you should be civil. That is what it should be and I know that at times my own emotions get the better of me. The unfortunate fact in all of this is Child Sexual Abuse has been a part of scouting for a very long time. The survivors who are posting were scouters so these posts are relevant to the forum. 
Because of the bankruptcy a lot of old wounds have been reopened and some of us are less equipped to handle the pain. For me personally it is posters who try to whitewash with wide brushes. For others it could be something else. It may be hard for those whose scouting experience was nothing but good times and it may seem like you are under constant assault from survivors who are trying to deal with issues arising from their scouting experience but I think there will come a time we won’t need this forum to handle our broken psyche. Hopefully we won’t have succumbed to our pain. 

@johnsch322 ... Thank you for the kind response.  This bankruptcy is painful and as you said old wounds are being re-opened.  I agree with the lawsuit from the aspect that victims deserve to be heard.  I do question the motivations of some involved, but overall most intended well.  

@johnsch322 ... I'll post what I wrote.  Let me know if it's inappropriate.  If so, I'll ask the moderators to remove.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

People who haven't been through hell cannot relate. 

@johnsch322 ... This is what I wrote that I did not post.  Let me know if it's inappropriate.  If so, I'll ask moderators to remove.

 

The trouble is absolutist statements such as "cannot relate" or "No one else in scouting has listened to them."  Absolute statements block a forum for discussion with the intention that we exchange ideas and views.  

Case mentioned above, John Brady:  The BSA records reflect an organized system, removal from position, blocking attempt to re-register.  Significant effort was made to block this volunteer.  This was 1968; the year society was preaching the evil of requiring seat belts in cars.  Before email.  Before internet.  Before online databases.  The records show that the perpetrator traveled 1000+ miles away and the paper-based system blocked him from re-registering.  

https://bsa-perpetrator-docs.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/john-l-brady.pdf

The records also reflect extended military judicial handling.  The military JAJ (judge advocate, joint??) documented 12 sets of parents would not let their kids testify in a court martial.  The case went up multiple levels of command and into hospitals to be handled by doctors / psychiastrists.  So the military legal system failed.  The doctors and hospital failed.  The parents failed.  Yes, BSA failed too.  ...

The only positive I can say is BSA did block him from registering three months later in St. Louis.  It all started with the first troop leaders (scoutmaster and committee members) taking this seriously.  They removed the volunteer and communicated that information to the council to block the volunteer.

For 1968 ... speaking to paperwork / record keeping ... This was impressive.  Three months later a paper system blocked the volunteer 1000+ miles away.  That itself means BSA took this very seriously.

As ugly as this case is, it parallels other cases.  I re-read 15 or so random cases.  Most were the first LA Times listed.  One in 1980s had detective T<forgot her last name> saying it was too late to file charges when it was within a year or so.  Another had the city police chief sending records to BSA with request to not publicly release the records.  Another in 1980s had charges brought for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor".  Another had the executive directory of a child rehabilitation clinic promising to not contact police as part of being able to get the interview.  

I have trouble accusing those from 50 years ago using today's standards, today's understanding and today's laws.  

The crime happened.  The damage is real.  The pain continues.  ... BSA has fault, but so a wide wide cut of society.  ... I just don't believe society in 1968 understood CSA or how handle it.  

Edited February 28, 2022 by fred8033

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

@johnsch322 ... This is what I wrote that I did not post.  Let me know if it's inappropriate.  If so, I'll ask moderators to remove.

 

The trouble is absolutist statements such as "cannot relate" or "No one else in scouting has listened to them."  Absolute statements block a forum for discussion with the intention that we exchange ideas and views.  

Case mentioned above, John Brady:  The BSA records reflect an organized system, removal from position, blocking attempt to re-register.  Significant effort was made to block this volunteer.  This was 1968; the year society was preaching the evil of requiring seat belts in cars.  Before email.  Before internet.  Before online databases.  The records show that the perpetrator traveled 1000+ miles away and the paper-based system blocked him from re-registering.  

https://bsa-perpetrator-docs.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/john-l-brady.pdf

The records also reflect extended military judicial handling.  The military JAJ (judge advocate, joint??) documented 12 sets of parents would not let their kids testify in a court martial.  The case went up multiple levels of command and into hospitals to be handled by doctors / psychiastrists.  So the military legal system failed.  The doctors and hospital failed.  The parents failed.  Yes, BSA failed too.  ...

The only positive I can say is BSA did block him from registering three months later in St. Louis.  It all started with the first troop leaders (scoutmaster and committee members) taking this seriously.  They removed the volunteer and communicated that information to the council to block the volunteer.

For 1968 ... speaking to paperwork / record keeping ... This was impressive.  Three months later a paper system blocked the volunteer 1000+ miles away.  That itself means BSA took this very seriously.

As ugly as this case is, it parallels other cases.  I re-read 15 or so random cases.  Most were the first LA Times listed.  One in 1980s had detective T<forgot her last name> saying it was too late to file charges when it was within a year or so.  Another had the city police chief sending records to BSA with request to not publicly release the records.  Another in 1980s had charges brought for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor".  Another had the executive directory of a child rehabilitation clinic promising to not contact police as part of being able to get the interview.  

I have trouble accusing those from 50 years ago using today's standards, today's understanding and today's laws.  

The crime happened.  The damage is real.  The pain continues.  ... BSA has fault, but so a wide wide cut of society.  ... I just don't believe society in 1968 understood CSA or how handle it.  

The system failed the victims. I am a victim of John L Brady and I was never asked about my abuse. If I had been asked I would have told them about his accomplice. How many more times did his accomplice victimize children. How would my life had turned out if I had been asked and then been offered therapy. I honestly believe that the BSA had a keep it quiet policy and that greatly contributed to the amount of CSA that was going on.  

[fred8033]

2 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

The system failed the victims. I am a victim of John L Brady and I was never asked about my abuse. If I had been asked I would have told them about his accomplice. How many more times did his accomplice victimize children. How would my life had turned out if I had been asked and then been offered therapy. I honestly believe that the BSA had a keep it quiet policy and that greatly contributed to the amount of CSA that was going on.  

@johnsch322 ... Wishing you the best.  It's an ugly scaring crime.  I'm not sure what else to say.