Chapter 11 Announced - Part 8 - TCC Term Sheet & Plan Confirmation

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Eagle1970 said:

One stipulation though, regarding shades of Gray.... I'd sure rather be in Gray 1 than my happy home of Gray 3.  The whole Gray scale drives me to drink.  You are either closed or open.  Gray 1,2,3 classification is arbitrary, and I'm sure there were cases where it was a coin toss between the categories.

I still would like to read the white paper and source materials on which these scales were built. We’ve been told these categories were created in consultation with the most experienced child sexual abuse state court attorneys. I believe it, but please show me. This is a complex, politically-charged and speculative calculus. We deserve to understand it. Wasn’t there something called a Disclosure Statement back when. Hm…🤔 

My primary abuse was in Gray 3, with smatterings in Grays 1 & 2. I think I should get to pick a jurisdiction and move all my chips to that shade. 😬

[skeptic]

This gets muddier as we go.  Not the legal guru, but I want to know what is the status of the vetting of the huge amount of last minute claims?  How much of an effect does that have, and would it not benefit the survivors by weeding out outright fakes and overblown claims?  Want to get this in the rearview mirror so we can move forward locally without too much worry.  

 

[ThenNow]

3 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Not the legal guru, but I want to know what is the status of the vetting of the huge amount of last minute claims?

My bet? We’ll never know. They will quietly sneak off the trail via the $3500 spur and go their merry way. There will be valid survivor claimants that exit stage left, as well, not wanting to deal with this any more. Clarity will elude us. 

[clbkbx]

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

The largesse some believe councils possess is just not there.

Wasn’t this the point of the TCC’s local council analysis? I’m not sure there is or is not but I think this can be known. 

[fred8033]

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

No, none.  A few references to Chapter 7 but not by BSA and only in passing.

 

The ~$2.7B initially.  The trustee would be empowered to go after non settled chartered orgs, non-settled insurance companies (national BSA insurance, LC insurance and it sounds like CO insurance).  The Roman Catholics are VERY upset that the non-settled COs have their own insurance now targeted with this plan.

They have 3 paths.  $3500 or TDP just like previous.  TDP requires more documentation and the trustee (designee) would determine payout based on TDP scales.

The 3rd path is the neutral.  A party (likely retired judge) would basically oversee a trial.  The claimant would have to provide $20K + a ton of documentation.  They would have to be examined by a psychologist (possibly).  Sit through cross examination from lawyers (probably from insurance companies).  After this "trial" the "neutral" would determine liability and damages as if it were a state case.  Then, the claimant would get 100% of those damages.  Up to $1M would come directly from the trust.  Everything over $1M would come from the excess trust fund that is collected from the groups I mentioned in your 2nd question.  

I think basically everything is sold (trademarks, property, etc.).  Then claimants are paid after secured debtors are paid.  I doubt LCs would be pulled in.  

To me, if this plan doesn't go through this path there are two options.

Option 1 - Chapter 7

Option 2 - BSA charges all LCs an assessment.  Perhaps $500K each, one time charge.  If you can't afford it, merge with another council.  Lets say half councils merge, they would get $62.5M ... enough to probably last 6 more months in bankruptcy.

 

My questions might have been misunderstood. 

All related to BSA going chapter 7. 

How much would be available to victims if BSA went chapter 7.  I doubt it would be $2.7B because there is no settlement; no insurance; no LC donation. 

My 3rd question was if victims would be better off with a chapter 7; not about about neutral party vs TDP and the $20k penalty to get your already existing rights to be heard.  From what I read before, BSA chapter 7 would be worse off for everyone including victims.  

I even question whether chapter 7 is real or if it's a shadow state.  BSA can sell everything, but I question if it can go out of business completely because of the congressional charter.  It just goes into a shadow state until some future president re-instates BSA using the existing perpetual existence according to law of the congressional charter.

Edited February 12, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagle1970]

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I can's say as I understand you.  Could you explain? Thanks.

To me, it is morally wrong to pit victims against each other and give victims who were merely touched more money than victims who endured unspeakable horrors, based solely on the state where abuse occurred.  I understand that is how it is, but I find it reprehensible.

[Eagle1970]

3 hours ago, ThenNow said:

My bet? We’ll never know. They will quietly sneak off the trail via the $3500 spur and go their merry way. There will be valid survivor claimants that exit stage left, as well, not wanting to deal with this any more. Clarity will elude us. 

And I wish anyone with a questionable claim would do exactly that.  The higher degree that claims are vetted (i.e. the greater the requested detail claimants will have to furnish) the more will opt for $3500.

[ThenNow]

25 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

And I wish anyone with a questionable claim would do exactly that.  The higher degree that claims are vetted (i.e. the greater the requested detail claimants will have to furnish) the more will opt for $3500.

This is such a problematic area. Take a 60+ year old man abused at 8 while at a distant camp. He left left Scouting immediately thereafter may not now much of anything other than what happened to them and some of the setting. I've thought about this a great deal after I wrote something to the effect that, "surely you know where you lived, names of some of your fellow Scouts, and etc. That may be a small minority, it may be a goodly number. I really would like to know how many people manipulated this system, including attorneys and claims aggregators. They have abused the system and all of us abused as Scouts whether claimants or not. I take it as a personal affront and offense. I've thought about that a lot, too. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by ThenNow

[yknot]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

From what I read before, BSA chapter 7 would be worse off for everyone.

Would it be, or is it just forestalling the inevitable? I've seen little in the plan that constitutes any kind of a real restructuring of the organization. The only strategies for future success are lasered in on yet more marketing and reliance on membership increases. There is a lack any kind of independent, outside or even introspective review of how scouting is going to survive beyond the 2020s. The CO and volunteer issues are huge. Would it be better for the survivors for BSA to fail and take their chances with LCs and COs?  Or, if BSA goes through Ch. 11 only to wind up in Ch. 7 a few years from now, where would those remaining assets go? To the Trust? Would that be an additional potential beneft to survivors? Or would any remaining assets go to a whole new list of creditors? I would think that would be the ultimate tragedy for survivors if they get a pittance now, and then get cut out yet once again if/when BSA goes Ch. 7 at a future date. 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Would it be, or is it just forestalling the inevitable? I've seen little in the plan that constitutes any kind of a real restructuring of the organization. The only strategies for future success are lasered in on yet more marketing and reliance on membership increases. There is a lack any kind of independent, outside or even introspective review of how scouting is going to survive beyond the 2020s. The CO and volunteer issues are huge. Would it be better for the survivors for BSA to fail and take their chances with LCs and COs?  Or, if BSA goes through Ch. 11 only to wind up in Ch. 7 a few years from now, where would those remaining assets go? To the Trust? Would that be an additional potential beneft to survivors? Or would any remaining assets go to a whole new list of creditors? I would think that would be the ultimate tragedy for survivors if they get a pittance now, and then get cut out yet once again if/when BSA goes Ch. 7 at a future date. 

"forestalling the inevitable" infers BSA is not viable on a day-to-day basis.  That's not my understanding.  Lower membership can improve.  Donations can return.  BSA is in bankruptcy because there is no financial way to cover legal challenges; CSA, GSA, etc.

By worse off, I do mean BSA would not be there ... but I also mean victims would get more cash out of a chapter 11 bankruptcy with a settlement.

[Eagle1970]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

This is such a problematic area. Take a 60+ year old man abused at 8 while at a distant camp. He left left Scouting immediately thereafter may not now much of anything other than what happened to them and some of the setting. I've thought about this a great deal after I wrote something to the effect that, "surely you know where you lived, names of some of your fellow Scouts, and etc. That may be a small minority, it may be a goodly number. I really would like to know how many people manipulated this system, including attorneys and claims aggregators. They have abused the system and all of us abused as Scouts whether claimants or not. I take it as a personal affront and offense. I've thought about that a lot, too. 

I'm almost 66 and can remember most everything in my life, in detail.  I have a friend in his late 50's who can't remember last week.  It's frustrating to even try to converse.  So, I get it and there may be some in that situation.  But opportunists game most every mass tort.  And I'm confident, with all those commercials, this is no exception.  Hell, not a bad deal just for $3500, for an opportunist.

[PaleRider]

If you choose the TDP route do the base/maximum amounts stay the same as stated in the plan we voted for? 

Edited February 13, 2022 by PaleRider

[Eagle1993]

4 hours ago, PaleRider said:

If you choose the TDP route do the base/maximum amounts stay the same as stated in the plan we voted for? 

Yes.  My understanding is that there are no changes to the TDP route from the current plan. 

[PaleRider]

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Yes.  My understanding is that there are no changes to the TDP route from the current plan. 

Thank you.

[PaleRider]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:09 PM, Eagle1970 said:

I'm going to be generous and say about 3, and I won't be one. 

Having just finished reading the text, it looks to me that the purpose is to steer only the strongest cases into independent review, thereby settling the vast majority through the main channel.  Actually, just the $20k will accomplish that.  Most survivors won't want to part with $20k with risk and I would have to believe that law firms are a bit reluctant to extend a lot of $20k checks since many outcomes may be 40% of $3500, which won't cover even the basics.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by PaleRider