Will the BSA survive bankruptcy?

[skeptic]

24 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Without complete rebuilding of the legal system that got us here little will happen but waste, and little actual balance.  

 

 

[fred8033]

22 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

It will not be anything like we are accustomed to recognize.

We can only hope. 

[SiouxRanger]

22 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We can only hope. 

My comment was directed at my concern that program would not look like what it was-and negatively so.

But, I think you may be suggesting that the failed administrative aspects of Scouting will be gone. One can only hope.

Either way, my friend, it is a hideous mess.

War, and litigation, are like that, civilities and pleasantries, the grist of diplomacy, devolve into slaughter, cruelty, devastation, and death. The tempest settles and clears, and the survivors pick up the pieces, and build anew.

I've quoted Churchill before, and this quote specifically, but I will repeat it here.

 

How the Great Democracies

Triumphed,

and so,

Were able to Resume

the Follies

Which Had so Nearly

Cost Them Their

Life

Winston S. Churchill

The Second World War, Vol. VI

And, to put meat on the bone:

National exits bankruptcy (Triumphed), and went back to business as usual (Follies-concealing abuse claims, not reporting claims to its insurers, insurers being duped into believing that there are no claims, and thereby not raising premiums nor alerted that there should be an independent measure of effective oversight and management of claims), and resuming National's "business as usual" model which will carry National right back to today, just 30 years from now. Not having learned a whit from its near-death experience.

As one poster commented, paraphrasing, "I see nothing in the Plan that actually reorganizes National." ("Resume the follies which had so nearly cost them their life.")

Apparently, National resists any meaningful oversight of abuse claims.

And why would that be?  (Carson-Downton Abbey. "Well let's move on." Same Carson.)

NO, with National, we cannot and will not "move on."

We should NOT merely "move on."

We should Stand And Demand.

If National is unwilling to take reasonable measures to protect children, then reasonable measures should be imposed upon it.

The "Youth Protection" program is a huge step forward.  BUT if there is no independent monitoring of claims and independent evaluation of the effectiveness of the BSA Youth Protection Program, and a mechanism to suggest refinements, the fox is again in charge of the hen house.

And, frankly, the "hen house" is a bankruptcy courtroom. Nice work, if you can keep your job.

If no abuse claim reform with independent monitoring, all us are just back in the same fog National enjoyed for nearly a century.  Which brought National, and thousands of children, now adults, to a reckoning, of sorts, in Bankruptcy Court.

Just reflect on the hundreds of old newspaper photos showing a troop marching down Main Street, flags waving, scouts smiling.  And imagine that in the shadows of the crowd, if the abused scout even attended, or several them , wishing they could march with their friends and enjoy the moment but who shrunk back, compelled to contrive forced explanations to their parents on why they lost interest in scouting, though craving to "belong," and denied that experience for reasons they could not tell anyone.

Trustworthy.

 

[skeptic]

5 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

My comment was directed at my concern that program would not look like what it was-and negatively so.

But, I think you may be suggesting that the failed administrative aspects of Scouting will be gone. One can only hope.

Either way, my friend, it is a hideous mess.

War, and litigation, are like that, civilities and pleasantries, the grist of diplomacy, devolve into slaughter, cruelty, devastation, and death. The tempest settles and clears, and the survivors pick up the pieces, and build anew.

I've quoted Churchill before, and this quote specifically, but I will repeat it here.

 

How the Great Democracies

Triumphed,

and so,

Were able to Resume

the Follies

Which Had so Nearly

Cost Them Their

Life

Winston S. Churchill

The Second World War, Vol. VI

And, to put meat on the bone:

National exits bankruptcy (Triumphed), and went back to business as usual (Follies-concealing abuse claims, not reporting claims to its insurers, insurers being duped into believing that there are no claims, and thereby not raising premiums nor alerted that there should be an independent measure of effective oversight and management of claims), and resuming National's "business as usual" model which will carry National right back to today, just 30 years from now. Not having learned a whit from its near-death experience.

As one poster commented, paraphrasing, "I see nothing in the Plan that actually reorganizes National." ("Resume the follies which had so nearly cost them their life.")

Apparently, National resists any meaningful oversight of abuse claims.

And why would that be?  (Carson-Downton Abbey. "Well let's move on." Same Carson.)

NO, with National, we cannot and will not "move on."

We should NOT merely "move on."

We should Stand And Demand.

If National is unwilling to take reasonable measures to protect children, then reasonable measures should be imposed upon it.

The "Youth Protection" program is a huge step forward.  BUT if there is no independent monitoring of claims and independent evaluation of the effectiveness of the BSA Youth Protection Program, and a mechanism to suggest refinements, the fox is again in charge of the hen house.

And, frankly, the "hen house" is a bankruptcy courtroom. Nice work, if you can keep your job.

If no abuse claim reform with independent monitoring, all us are just back in the same fog National enjoyed for nearly a century.  Which brought National, and thousands of children, now adults, to a reckoning, of sorts, in Bankruptcy Court.

Just reflect on the hundreds of old newspaper photos showing a troop marching down Main Street, flags waving, scouts smiling.  And imagine that in the shadows of the crowd, if the abused scout even attended, or several them , wishing they could march with their friends and enjoy the moment but who shrunk back, compelled to contrive forced explanations to their parents on why they lost interest in scouting, though craving to "belong," and denied that experience for reasons they could not tell anyone.

Trustworthy.

 

Me thinks you paint far too broadly and darkly.  I seriously would doubt the numbers suggested, though because of the era involved, and the societal responses at the time, many poor decisions likely "could" have occurred.  But, the picture you would have us see does not include the efforts very early to find a way to head off undesirables, as they were recognized.  It has been pointed out that while it was not nearly enough, at least some efforts were made far earlier than was common for the times.  On the other hand, much of the hyperbole is based on little or no evidence of the level purported.  

Based on the historical material known, Scouting played and still can play a major part in better commuities.  The supposition that there was an organized plan or effort to abuse youth by BSA on the national level seems ludicrous and far fetched.  Were there episodes of abuse.  That is also likely a given, as Scouting afterall is still part of the larger society.  The difference is that most likely the bad players were less common there, especially given the multitudes that passed through in the first century, than in the broader society.  

Yes, crimes occurred and some were not dealt with honestly and openly.  Again, not unusual for the times.  Was there a problem?  Yes, but I fail to believe it was the magnitude that is played in the frenzy to paint BSA as some are doing.  Should there be some penalty to BSA for episodes of very poor decision making and maybe on occasion actual coverup?  Certainly, but again, the balance should be found and the mistakes used to make these things less likely to happen.  Will they possibly reoccur.  Sadly, that is not probable since it is worse in the larger society, though we should see it far less of it.  Vigilence and constant review, as is part of the proposals now being suggested are necessary and should be implemented.  

At the same time, efforts should continue to offer the good of the foundational tenets, and strengthen them as well.  Our society needs is begging for the leadership and service BSA has tendered in the past, and still does.  But, the yellow press and a few misled or simply "bad" players ignore the positive and push the negative.  And our jaded society points fingers, even as they ignore similar or worse crimes against youth and society in general perpetuated by those with power and positions to be far worse than BSA or the various clergy.  

We cannot shove things under the proverbial carpets, but we can recognize that the lumpy carpets of society are not restricted to youth serving groups or the spiritual/religious organizations.  Yes, BSA and other youth groups can do better and should always strive to do so.  But it is time to spread the efforts to address the even larger problem that secrets the bad players that prey on BSA and others.  

I will now step down off the stump again.  Please understand that I am NOT denying recompense is due in some manner to the survivors, and I am not suggesting that we just ignore the bad management and decision making.  Only pointing out that BSA and others are still part of the larger society, and that the bad players are lurking there, waiting for lack of vigilance that will allow them in.  

 

[johnsch322]

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Again, not unusual for the times.  Was there a problem?  Yes, but I fail to believe it was the magnitude that is played in the frenzy to paint BSA as some are doing.  Should there be some penalty to BSA for episodes of very poor decision making and maybe on occasion actual coverup? 

Once again blame it on the times and occasional cover up? what about the thousand in the Pervert files?

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Our society needs is begging for the leadership and service BSA has tendered in the past, and still does.

According to who? What leadership?

21 minutes ago, skeptic said:

But, the yellow press and a few misled or simply "bad" players ignore the positive and push the negative. 

So by ""bad" players" you are referring to whom....survivors?

21 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Please understand that I am NOT denying recompense is due in some manner to the survivors,

You have consistently said this without giving what type of recompense you mean and always imply survivors are asking for to much.

19 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Were there episodes of abuse.  That is also likely a given, as Scouting afterall is still part of the larger society.  The difference is that most likely the bad players were less common there, especially given the multitudes that passed through in the first century, than in the broader society.  

Perpetrators always go for environments that are the easiest and where they are less likely to be caught. "Bad players" chose the BSA because it was easy to prey on victims and they were likely to have no consequences if caught.

 

[skeptic]

13 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Once again blame it on the times and occasional cover up? what about the thousand in the Pervert files?

 

You seem to be one with one of the broadest brushes and no periperal vision.  Many of the ones in your "pervert files" were there for other reasons, as has been noted many time.  Reality is that it is a societal problem.  I did not say survivors should be overlooked, though I am sure you read that and just choose to ignore it.  Your comment about what leadership just indicates to me that you have little or no real grasp of how beneficial overall Scouting has been for the larger society.  We are talking about the youths that have stepped up and used their positive scouting experiences to better themselves and the larger communities.  Instead of focusing on the small (but real) percentage of problems, we need to take the best parts and magnify them.  It is obvious that you prefer to just ignore the preponderance of positive contributions to not just our country, but other countries that have been rendered by Scouting.  

Hate is almost as bad as abuse, and it does almost, or maybe sometimes more damage.  Perhaps you might recognize that.  So, please do not belabor your self with accusations and sputtering exagerations.  Thank you for your comments; I just wish you could see beyond that cloud of negative and recognize the positive and opportunities that are there with efforts going forward.  

[johnsch322]

11 hours ago, skeptic said:

I just wish you could see beyond that cloud of negative and recognize the positive and opportunities that are there with efforts going forward.

And I wish you could see the real world.

Read this.  This is reality.  He molested at least 12 boys do you think at least 12 boys were molested in just one night? What if I told you he had a partner in his perversion. Have you read the files any of the files?  There were and still may be thousands of perverts just like him in the BSA.

bsa_john-l-brady.pdf (boyscoutssexualabuse.com)

Edited February 13, 2022 by johnsch322

[skeptic]

I have read it, and the it is reprehensible.  And that is why the efforts to improve YP should continue.  But, it is not the norm, and never has been.  Weaning out the worst that prey on others, whether in Scouting or elsewhere is a constant challenge.  It is also not an abosolute possibility.  Back to the old adage of the baby and the bathwater.  But it is your option to refuse to look at the worst as the norm.  But, as noted before, I cannot make you get beyond whatever demons push you to ignore the larger and more complete picture.  Please just stop painting others with your same negativity.

[johnsch322]

33 minutes ago, skeptic said:

But it is your option to refuse to look at the worst as the norm.  But, as noted before, I cannot make you get beyond whatever demons push you to ignore the larger and more complete picture.  Please just stop painting others with your same negativity.

I guess you are right it just a part of society at large let us look at the good to negate the bad.  I mean 100's of thousands of abused boys, no big deal.

And remember that Dr Joseph Mengele guy his experiments on living humans saved other lives and advanced medical science.  Maybe him and those he was associated with are not so bad if you take a look at the bigger picture.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by johnsch322

[MattR]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

I guess you are right it just a part of society at large let us look at the good to negate the bad.  I mean 100's of thousands of abused boys, no big deal.

And remember that Dr Joseph Mengele guy his experiments on living humans saved other lives and advanced medical science.  Maybe him and those he was associated with are not so bad if you take a look at the bigger picture.

 

It's time to stop, both of you.

[Eagle94-A1]

One of the reasons  for using historical perspective is because  society and technology were different than today. There were no mandatory reporting laws. Without witnesses pressing charges and willing to testify, there was nothing legally could be done. Please note that in the case  linked, the abuse happened in 1968, which predates mandatory reporting laws, and page 9 of the record indicates that "None of the parents involved would allow their sons to go on a witness stand in a military court martial to testify...." Sadly that happened a lot more often than not. And without victims, or their parents, willing to press charges and testify, the perps were not prosecuted.

As technology, this was before computers databases with near instantaneous access to information and emails with prompt responses. Everything mad to be sent to national and manually reviewed.

In my opinion the case cited showed how the Ineligible Volunteer File  worked the way it was suppose to.

 

Now Do I wish the abuse had happened, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Do I wish the USAF were able to court martial the perp? Absolutely.

 

 

[Eagle1993]

Within Scouting, barriers to abuse is effective when followed.  I think the number of abused has dropped off from the peak and most Troops & Packs are safe.  For the most part, I think the YP changes in the bankruptcy will further help.

However, one of my concerns, long term, is the Explorer program.  Given the number of youth in the program, it seems to have an outsized number of abused.

• Explorer+Scout+national+abuse.pdf (squarespace.com)
• Ohio Explorer scouts among sex abuse victims (news5cleveland.com)
• Lawsuit alleges sexual abuse of Police Explorers in 1980s by ex-Irvine sergeant – Orange County Register (ocregister.com)
• Dozens of Teenage Boy Scout Explorers Have Been Sexually Abused by Cops; Should Scouts Share the Blame? | News | Phoenix | Phoenix New Times | The Leading Independent News Source in Phoenix, Arizona

To me, Explorers is not a key part of BSA's mission (along with Learning for Life).  These programs should be spun off as separate organizations.  Continuing these programs under BSA puts the entire mission at risk.  I would think BSA should focus on Scouting (Cub, Scouts BSA, Venturing & Sea).  

[gpurlee]

32 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

However, one of my concerns, long term, is the Explorer program.  Given the number of youth in the program, it seems to have an outsized number of abused.

You raise a good question. Within our council there recently was a multi million dollar settlement involving a police exploring program. Three officers charged for offenses involving both male and female explorers.  Knowing there was a decades long problem with abuse within these programs, one wonders why oversight was not stronger and protection policies not enforced. 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, gpurlee said:

You raise a good question. Within our council there recently was a multi million dollar settlement involving a police exploring program. Three officers charged for offenses involving both male and female explorers.  Knowing there was a decades long problem with abuse within these programs, one wonders why oversight was not stronger and protection policies not enforced. 

Is there a data picture illustrating any concentration of type(s) of sponsoring organizations across the cases? Do they center around law enforcement or first responders? The few I’ve read all did. Curious and not accusing or pointing a finger. Looking to answer a question.

[fred8033]

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

... Explorer program.  Given the number of youth in the program, it seems to have an outsized number of abused.

• Explorer+Scout+national+abuse.pdf (squarespace.com)
• Ohio Explorer scouts among sex abuse victims (news5cleveland.com)
• Lawsuit alleges sexual abuse of Police Explorers in 1980s by ex-Irvine sergeant – Orange County Register (ocregister.com)
• Dozens of Teenage Boy Scout Explorers Have Been Sexually Abused by Cops; Should Scouts Share the Blame? | News | Phoenix | Phoenix New Times | The Leading Independent News Source in Phoenix, Arizona

Talk about deep pockets ... with very actively involved charter orgs ... and adult perpetrators that knew better ... most COs were cities (police and fire departments).  That's where your millions per victim will be possible.