Will the BSA survive bankruptcy?

[Eagledad]

Scouting is supposed to be a bucket list of activities. It was in our troop. The problem with that is the list is only as long as the adults allow. That has to be fixed.

funny thing about the “Mission”, most people know what it is. Character building. The problem there is that they don’t understand how the process of scouting builds character. And that starts from the top. We knew National was lost when the added “Leadership” as a fourth Aim.

Scouting is an outdoor program, but it is more than that. But how?

Scouting needs to get back to making sense. Both in Cubs and Troops.

Barry

[fred8033]

36 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

... leadership ...

Yet another potential tangent.  For revisiting purpose, Let's de-escalate leadership.  It's the natural outcome we can brag about.  We should invest on fellowship.   Youth spending time with youth.  Youth working with youth.    Leadership will be a natural outcome.   Too often the program is damaged by badly teaching leadership. 

Reviewing this thead.

Clearly reflects I need to get back to work.

Edited February 2, 2022 by fred8033

[fred8033]

32 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scouting is supposed to be a bucket list of activities. It was in our troop. The problem with that is the list is only as long as the adults allow. That has to be fixed.

funny thing about the “Mission”, most people know what it is. Character building. The problem there is that they don’t understand how the process of scouting builds character. And that starts from the top. We knew National was lost when the added “Leadership” as a fourth Aim.

Scouting is an outdoor program, but it is more than that. But how?

Scouting needs to get back to making sense. Both in Cubs and Troops.

Barry

Great answer.  Wrong thread. 

Perhaps aims/goals/benefits need to be split between where leaders actively invest and where the scouts passively benefit.  

* Actively invest in camping, outdoors, etc  

* Passively benefit from character building, leadership, etc.  

I swear camping overnight in a torrential down pour goes a long way to a new scout building character and far more than almost all scout leaders.

Edited February 2, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagle1993]

20 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Great answer.  Wrong thread. 

 

I went ahead and moved these to the correct thread.

[Cburkhardt]

I have “done it all” at every level and in every program in Scouting, but these past four years I focused only on forming two units and being a unit leader (Scoutmaster of a 51-member all-girl Troop and Skipper of a 28-member Ship).  These are new units formed and grown amid the challenges of the BSA’s membership policy changes, bankruptcy and COVID.  Because my focus has been only on the go-forward program, experience informs me the BSA and its programs will indeed be moving forward.  You can view these units as two unscientific “focus groups”.  When the youth, registered adult, parent and one-off program contributor individuals are added-up, well over 150 humans have been involved.

The experience of those currently involved in our two units – including chartered organization leaders -- has been uniformly rewarding.  Council services have been excellent and the national organization has persevered in the face of what can only be described as impossible change-management circumstances.  The bankruptcy is talked of by our parents and adult leaders as a good process to compensate victims without destroying the good things about Scouting.  There is deep hope among these people that our local council  and national organization will continue.  It is the interest and confidence of youth members, parents and unit volunteers who will determine the future and strength of the program and its various organizational entities.  These people have demonstrated their support for continuation of this valued program with their behavior and participation.  A few thoughts from the "front lines".   

[Eagle1993]

I was at Klondike this past weekend and am extremely pessimistic about our future.  The energy I see across Troops and patrols is dying.  The number of participants down ... Flat to our Covid one.  Our Troop had 3 patrols, most had 2 or 1. Girls seem to be on the decline... only 1 full girl patrol and they are all getting old.  

I know recruiting went well vs Covid, but many Troops seem to be barely holding on.  

My Troop of 44 only had 2 scouts camp overnight.   More were signed up but had adults present drive them home for various reasons.  3 years ago we had 35 camp out. 3 years ago we had 360 scouts/scouters at Klondike... This year 220.

Kids have seemed to get used to playing with friends, having down time and enjoying the non scouting aspects of life.  

It would be one thing if it was only my Troop, but camp was empty everywhere. 

These are far more important indicators than number of online MBs earned or cub scouts recruited.  

Very concerning weekend.  I need to help fix my Troop but I am very worried about what I saw this weekend. 

 

[gpurlee]

44 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I was at Klondike this past weekend and am extremely pessimistic about our future.

Our area numbers are definitely down also. Last weekend's Klondike Derby probably had a third of the number of participants of previous winter events. In fairness, we were still recovering from the ice storm. More telling is that two years ago, Cub recruitment fell by 90 percent. While there was some increase this past fall, it was nowhere near the pace of previous years pre-pandemic. Most of our Cub packs are currently around third of their previous membership.

The "feeder system" going into troops has been devastated in our area. Even more so, the number of adults who normally would cross over with their child has been significantly reduced. This decline will likely affect the troops for sometime to come. The council seems reluctant to attempt a strong public recruitment effort until the bankruptcy issues are resolved.

We have also had a number of units lose their chartered organizations in the past few months. Even when they have been able to find a new chartered organization, it has often meant a loss of momentum and stability for the unit. 

I am concerned that the uncertainty about the future of the BSA is like the dementors in Harry Potter. It is sucking the energy out of the movement.

At the same time, I am impressed by the efforts that I see coming from the Crossroads Council (Indianapolis). They are proceeding with the launch of a strong marketing plan and have made some impressive staff hires of very experienced marketing professionals. Their recruitment numbers have also been impressive. Strong local leadership and direction will be essential if the BSA will have a positive future.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by gpurlee

[vol_scouter]

7 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

Our area numbers are definitely down also. Last weekend's Klondike Derby probably had a third of the number of participants of previous winter events. In fairness, we were still recovering from the ice storm. More telling is that two years ago, Cub recruitment fell by 90 percent. While there was some increase this past fall, it was nowhere near the pace of previous years pre-pandemic. Most of our Cub packs are currently around third of their previous membership.

The "feeder system" going into troops has been devastated in our area. Even more so, the number of adults who normally would cross over with their child has been significantly reduced. This decline will likely affect the troops for sometime to come. The council seems reluctant to attempt a strong public recruitment effort until the bankruptcy issues are resolved.

We have also had a number of units lose their chartered organizations in the past few months. Even when they have been able to find a new chartered organization, it has often meant a loss of momentum and stability for the unit. 

I am concerned that the uncertainty about the future of the BSA is like the dementors in Harry Potter. It is sucking the energy out of the movement.

At the same time, I am impressed by the efforts that I see coming from the Crossroads Council (Indianapolis). They are proceeding with the launch of a strong marketing plan and have made some impressive staff hires of very experienced marketing professionals. Their recruitment numbers have also been impressive. Strong local leadership and direction will be essential if the BSA will have a positive future.

 

My council is also seeing significant growth after losing ~50% during covid.  Parents seem to all be aware of the Chapter 11 but seem unconcerned whereas covid has kept some away.  Obviously, we do not know why the 50% who left did so and why they have not to date rejoined.

[1980Scouter]

There are so many other activities for kids today. Let's take youth hockey as an example.  Until the 1980's there were no arenas in my area. Now there are multiple and it is popular. Same for sking and ski club. 

We have to realize there are many other activities for kids available and scouting does not look as exciting as it once did.

You add increased fees and loss of local camps and it makes things even worse.

I think the death blow to scouting will be financial and not from bankruptcy but from decreased numbers and increased costs.

[vol_scouter]

@1980Scouter  You make a valid point.   In general, Scouting lost about 50% of the Scouts during COVID and Chapter 11.   Those who left over COVID will likely start returning this year with restrictions being dramatically lifted across the country this week.  The first question for Scouting is what portion of the 50% who left is due to Chapter 11 and can they be recruited again?  (One could also talk about those who left for both reasons but it just complicates and already complex equation.)  That is not known.

Answering the above will determine where we start.  Let’s say that of the 50% who left, half return so the new starting point for Scouting is 75% of the membership of two years ago.   Dos Scouting start to grow from there or does it continue a slow decline seen from the late 1970’s?

The increased competition for time by other activities has been a factor for decades.  Of interest, though the youth population in the USA has been increasing, most youth serving organizations including sports have been witnessing a decline.

Can the BSA rebrand itself as an important activity for children?  Will current parents start to realize that Scouting is important to develop character and leadership?  Will parents decide that returning to outdoor activities is important for them and their children?   I think that how those questions are answered will tell the fate of the BSA and Scouting in the USA.  Scouting as a movement will not die but it could serve only a small niche market.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

@1980Scouter ... Those who left over COVID will likely start returning this year with restrictions being dramatically lifted across the country this week. ...

Can the BSA rebrand itself as an important activity for children?  Will current parents start to realize that Scouting is important to develop character and leadership?  Will parents decide that returning to outdoor activities is important for them and their children?   I think that how those questions are answered will tell the fate of the BSA and Scouting in the USA.  Scouting as a movement will not die but it could serve only a small niche market.

Short term (10-15 years) COVID has devested scouting.   Don't expect a rapid rebound.  It's like 9/11.  Recruiting nights were killed.  It was a measurable loss that tracked thru the years as kids aged.  It was consistently measurable.  That will be COVID.  Those that continued active will continue.  A few will return.  Most youth though will have found other places to invest their time.  

I don't see bankruptcy as that huge of a membership issue.  Parents are numb to organizations going thru bankruptcy, legal turmoil and having to be structurally fixed.  Even after US Olympics ugliness, people continue to support gymnastics.  People will continue to attend Univ of Michigan and Pennsylvania.  People will still want scouting.  If I was 31 again with a 1st grader, it would not have bothered me. 

Scouting will recover because this country has a story about the rugged outdoorsman and exploring and discovery.  It is a unique niche that I don't see filled by any other youth organization.  If we say we teach leadership, STEM, etc, scouting will loose to youth sports, robotics clubs, etc.  Scouting wins when it's about outdoor adventure, fire, shooting sports, etc.   ... It will be 20 years, but it will recover.

Parents want their kids outside, off the couch with confidence to have safe moderate adventures.  It's a perfect niche for scouting.  It's one reason preserving the camps are crucial to scouting.  I would absolutely love to brag that my kid went on a 100 mile bike ride like I used to do.  Yet, most kids complain about doing a 50 mile bike ride.  All my sons are Eagle scouts.  All love to camp and I 100% trust them outdoors and I know they love camping and camp fires.  ... I think parents will value that.

Edited February 10, 2022 by fred8033

[SiouxRanger]

It will not be anything like we are accustomed to recognize.

[SiouxRanger]

On 2/9/2022 at 7:48 PM, Eagle1993 said:

I was at Klondike this past weekend and am extremely pessimistic about our future.  The energy I see across Troops and patrols is dying.  The number of participants down ... Flat to our Covid one.  Our Troop had 3 patrols, most had 2 or 1. Girls seem to be on the decline... only 1 full girl patrol and they are all getting old.  

I know recruiting went well vs Covid, but many Troops seem to be barely holding on.  

My Troop of 44 only had 2 scouts camp overnight.   More were signed up but had adults present drive them home for various reasons.  3 years ago we had 35 camp out. 3 years ago we had 360 scouts/scouters at Klondike... This year 220.

Kids have seemed to get used to playing with friends, having down time and enjoying the non scouting aspects of life.  

It would be one thing if it was only my Troop, but camp was empty everywhere. 

These are far more important indicators than number of online MBs earned or cub scouts recruited.  

Very concerning weekend.  I need to help fix my Troop but I am very worried about what I saw this weekend. 

 

Yeah.  Things measurable by physical count, attendees, easy.

But how does measure commitment of soul-loyalty?

[fred8033]

Perhaps the "Will BSA Survive" should be asked in a different way because I believe

• BSA has a financial way to keep going
• BSA has a market to keep going
• BSA has a purpose to keep going

Here's the big question ... will the exorbitantly expensive and purposefully incompetent demented bankruptcy process make enough progress to let BSA survive?  Seriously, the patient is on the table bleeding out tens of millions of dollars each month and no one has a clue the when the settlement agreements will conclude.  I know it's worse for so so many, but for BSA to survive, this really needs to go to a BSA only bankruptcy now.  Put as much in the trust as possible now and move on.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Perhaps the "Will BSA Survive" should be asked in a different way because I believe

• BSA has a financial way to keep going
• BSA has a market to keep going
• BSA has a purpose to keep going

Here's the big question ... will the exorbitantly expensive and purposefully incompetent demented bankruptcy process make enough progress to let BSA survive?  Seriously, the patient is on the table bleeding out tens of millions of dollars each month and no one has a clue the when the settlement agreements will conclude.  I know it's worse for so so many, but for BSA to survive, this really needs to go to a BSA only bankruptcy now.  Put as much in the trust as possible now and move on.

Without complete rebuilding of the legal system that got us here little will happen without waste and actual balance.