Will the BSA survive bankruptcy?

[1980Scouter]

I would like to take a poll of the posters here. Will the BSA survive bankruptcy and all the other factors at play (ie covid,funding issues,etc. )?

What do you think will happen and how long will BSA last? Or will they get through this and thrive in the future?

[Eagle1993]

I think it will depend on what they do post bankruptcy more than what they do during bankruptcy.  If they don't change course and keep going down their current path, I expect they back in bankruptcy court in 5-10 years and they will lose most of their properties.  I don't see them fading away fully ever, but they could become a very small group <0.5% of all youth and perhaps <1% of boys.

[fred8033]

Not a simple question.  Scouting will survive.  It has a strong legacy and many desire the program to continue. ... I look at today's youth.  Couch bound with internet and video games.  We need an outdoor program emphasizing fellowship and adventure.  

Will BSA survive?  I think so.  It won't be as rich for decades, but it will.  In reality, it doesn't really need much to continue.  BSA is it's intellectual property and vision.  

Perhaps the question is whether it will keep Philmont, Sea Base, Northern Tier and the Summit.

[qwazse]

So, when I lift my eyes from the scouting bubble, I find this:

• There is a tremendous amount of trust in BSA. For each soul who can claim dreadful harm from it, there are 99 who’ve benefited. For many of those, their scoutmaster was/is someone to come home to and catch up with … just like you would a coach or favorite teacher.
• Scouting itself will happen with or without BSA. BSA simply offers a structure to make it happen without reinventing too many wheels.
• The bean counters see the organization as a complicated network of properties. Most of us see it as the phone numbers of a few farmers and municipal or state park rangers.

There is a lot to lose. If youth are traveling longer distances to camp, their lives will be at increased risk. Folks who volunteer with BSA don’t like losing.

On the other hand, Americans are innovators. They’ll come up with something. I suspect that, lacking BSA, a federation of scouting organizations will fill the void.

Edited February 2, 2022 by qwazse

[Double Eagle]

Sadly, I think there is a slow death happening.  Cubs has taken a drastic membership decline.  Competing programs like GS or TL are getting more participation for the simple pricetag.  The latest selling of camps for restitution, increased membership fees, and decades of fundraising emphasis like FOS/popcorn just kills our reputation. 

As a lifelong scout/scouter, I miss the days where any youth could join with just a few bucks from grass cutting.  Gear and uniforms were passed to new scouts, and almost every family could afford to send a scout to summer camp.  Emphasis was on camp skills and outings, even if the same camp every month.  

You just don't hear a lot from the non-scouting world about the importance of being an Eagle Scout.  It is mirrored in the OA where you have:  Sash and dash, brotherhood and bounce, vigil and vanish.  

Holding my breath, the program survives, but needs a 911 call for life support in almost all areas.   

[vol_scouter]

Like the previous posters, I see the Scouting movement continuing.  What happens to the BSA and local councils will determine how Scouting in the USA is organized.

As to the fate of the BSA, please factor into my comments that I am not an attorney that means a lack of understanding of the details of what is occurring (I thank the legal professionals for posting here to help us understand).

My feeling is that there will be some agreement that includes the TCC through mediation that will result in approving the Chapter 11.  There will likely be some more money added to the trust in the process.  It seems to me that the agreement being offered is near the maximum that would likely ever be available in a trust or other method of distribution.  I know that some disagree on this but it is my opinion as someone with institutional knowledge.

In this scenario, Scouting will recover in a few years with a smaller and less able to fund large projects BSA.

From my council experience, putting the Chapter 11 and COVID behind us will result in strong growth for a few years until near where we were before COVID and bankruptcy.  The BSA plans to have a rebranding campaign after Chapter 11.  If that campaign is successful, there will be more growth.  The campaign would have to be spectacular to achieve the projected growth in my opinion.

It seems likely that small councils will want to merge with neighboring larger and healthier councils.  However, I do not see this as widespread as some here. 

Councils will be challenged financially so volunteers will play a larger role in the council functions.   The tight financial situation will spur the Executive Boards to scrutinize their Scout Executive more than usual resulting in better performance in some whereas some will find themselves looking for new jobs as the EB will replace them.

So I see a Scouting going forward though financially strapped.  It will have to assess needs more closely. The SBR might need to be sold if a solid business plan cannot be adopted.  Otherwise, it will drain an organization that cannot afford it.  The problem is that there is enormous debt on the property and it is hard to know who would want to buy it.

Supply division warehouses are part of the proposed settlement so I expect local Scout Shops may be replaced by online.  Pure speculation. 
 

Just my thoughts as someone involved for decades locally and nationally.  

[Eagle1993]

Really good input.  I am very concerned about the debt load that BSA will face post bankruptcy that will continue to drive costs higher.  

In my school district, I attended the Girl Scout recruiting event for my daughter when she was in K5.

• Cost - $25 ... no unit fee.  When the council person was asked about fees, they said they are MUCH cheaper than Cub Scouts and everyone laughed (this was before the more recent BSA fee increases)
• Uniform Cost - $20
• Patches ... very cheap
• Fundraising ... they ask but no requirement to sell cookies (easy to sell)
• Minimum to start $45
• Volunteer requests .. only to help your grade, no "pack or committee type roles, only 2 parents needed"

Now BSA approaching a Cub Scout

• $25 New member fee
• $72 for following year + $18 for remaining year ($90)
• $50 Pack fee
• $7 Council Fee
• ~$40 Uniform Cost
• Fundraising ... ask to sell popcorn, no requirement (not too bad to sell, but much tougher than cookies)
• Oh ... and surprise fundraising ... FOS request
• More volunteer overhead (committee, COR, Pack) ... some benefit but also more overhead
• Minimum to start $212

Unfortunately, the volunteer overhead and increasing costs will hurt Cub Scout recruiting vs past efforts.  Now, I do think a great national voice (think Bear Grills) that could generate natural excitement in scouting could help ... but has been absent from BSA for decades.

With Cub Scouts not keeping up, Scouts BSA will start declining as well.  As numbers decline and debt is high, fees will continue to rise.  To me, that is the death spiral for BSA.

How to avoid this?  

#1 ... Clarify mission, aims, etc.  What role does scouting fill in the 21st century.  Do parents and society agree that is a need.  Personally, I think BSA's mission is good, but they need to really be introspective and agree.  This could go from uniform through STEM.  Evaluate it all.

#2 ... Cut EVERYTHING that doesn't fit that mission.  Spin off or end projects/side gigs, etc. that do not align to that mission.

#3 ... Hire young, energetic leaders at the National Level that are active, communicate well at various forms of media, etc.  Generate a national excitement in scouting and the values it provides.

#4 ... Cut overhead costs aggressively.  Merge councils, consolidate IT, etc.  

#5 ... Spend MORE in areas that directly touch units.

#6 ... Invest in volunteers.  Free training.  Go after the 18 - 30 year olds (before they are parents) .. have them lead Packs, Troops, etc.

#7 ... Be aggressive on directing scouts to "good units" and help strengthen them vs just adding more units.

I'm sure there are many others.  BSA can thrive; however, I am a bit pessimistic based on our current state and National leaders.  

 

 

[malraux]

1 hour ago, Double Eagle said:

Competing programs like GS or TL are getting more participation for the simple pricetag. 

Getting good numbers on what is happening with TL always seems difficult. For example, in Nov 2021 they claimed 36,000 members with 18,000 new in the last year. But the year before, they claimed 30,000 members. That's some big turnover in membership if taken literally.

[5thGenTexan]

As I see things...  Scouts does not have a youth issue, it has an adult problem.

1) I was told last Fall after our new parent orientation that I am "Too Scouty"  I am not exactly sure what that means, but that came from other adult leaders in the Pack.

2)  The same pool of adult leaders took frozen chicken nuggets that they deep fried on the Fall campout.  They also took a propane refrigerator thing.  (My AOL Den made foil packs)

3) I expressed my frustrations a few weeks ago with the Committee that I needed more interaction from them when I try to discuss or plan.  I was told they don't have the time to do that for Scouts and its my problem that I put in the time and effort.  Cubmaster went on to say he can only do so much and if something fails it will be ok if the kids don't notice.  Absolutely no desire to excel and provide a good program.

I don't think this is limited to Scouts.  I see other organizations in town begging for help from their parents.  

[1980Scouter]

I think for BSA to survive, they need to get an agreement with the TCC. This likely will require a large increase in contributions by LC's. If this happens I could see a path forward. 

If they do not get an agreement this will become a court fight until Chapter 7 comes knocking. And then LC's are in the same boat a few years later.

There have to be program changes as others have suggested to make scouting safer and more up to date. Otherwise abuse lawsuits will occur, but at a smaller rate in the future. This will be the death of BSA. 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

The SBR might need to be sold if a solid business plan cannot be adopted.  

Sad thought is the debt may save SBR during bankruptcy.  Similar for Philmont with the question of whether the Philmont debt will be challenged. 

A similar thing may save BSA's IP.  BSA's IP value is reduced by BSA's congressional charter that says BSA is a perpetual corporation.  BSA can sell assets; such as it's IP.  BUT, theoretically a future president (say an Eagle Scout) could restart / reinvigorate BSA.  How much would you spend on BSA's IP if you knew that BSA could be resurrected and compete against you?  BSA's congressional charter doesn't mean much, but it does mean BSA is perpetual and continues to exist ... even if liquidated. 

          http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.asp

That would take an act of Congress to change.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by fred8033

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

#1 ... Clarify mission, aims, etc.  What role does scouting fill in the 21st century.  Do parents and society agree that is a need.  Personally, I think BSA's mission is good, but they need to really be introspective and agree.  This could go from uniform through STEM.  Evaluate it all.

Your other points are good.  

I want to emphasize #1.     Originally, Baden-Powell created scouting during urbanization and the loss of scout-craft.  Using the military like structure that alienates many.  Using archaic skills (heresy, but often viewed this way) that many now just don't care about.

I really question "clarity of mission".  As a parent, I scream for ways to get my kids outside and getting experiences.  IMHO, this aligns with the society valuing "bucket lists"; another version of bragging rights.   What items would you like to be able to say you've done?  50 mile bike ride?  Swimming?  Canoeing?  Skiing.  Snow camping.  Rockies?  Zip lines.  Horses.  etc, etc, etc.    Laser tag.  Dodge ball.  Paint ball.  (again heresy).   

Everyone wants bragging rights.    Things to be proud of.  ... That's the whole purpose of the merit badge sash.  Bragging rights.  ... Sadly, today the MB sash is "Look at what I wasted my time doing."  ...  Remember how I filled out that MB workbook.  Remember how we sat in that classroom on Monday nights or that Saturday morning.  Look I've got all four citizen badges.  

I know others might not like it, but the back of a few of my son's sash'es have really cool things they have done.  High adventure base patches.  National parks / monuments.  IMHO, the back of their sash is more about bragging rights than the front.   The back tells their scouting story.

I really wish the front of the MB sash was for real bragging rights too.  How about a stripe (or tent) for every 20 nights of camping.  How about another wheel for every 50 miles of biking.  Another pear of shoes patch for every 25 miles of hiking.  etc, etc, etc. 

I wish scouting was a great bucket list activity.  

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by fred8033

[5thGenTexan]

25 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Your other points are good.  

I want to emphasize #1.     Originally, Baden-Powell created scouting during urbanization and the loss of scout-craft.  Using the military like structure that alienates many.  Using archaic skills (heresy, but often viewed this way) that many now just don't care about.

I really question "clarity of mission".  As a parent, I scream for ways to get my kids outside and getting experiences.  IMHO, this aligns with the society valuing "bucket lists"; another version of bragging rights.   What items would you like to be able to say you've done?  50 mile bike ride?  Swimming?  Canoeing?  Skiing.  Snow camping.  Rockies?  Zip lines.  Horses.  etc, etc, etc.    Laser tag.  Dodge ball.  Paint ball.  (again heresy).   

Everyone wants bragging rights.    Things to be proud of.  ... That's the whole purpose of the merit badge sash.  Bragging rights.  ... Sadly, today the MB sash is "Look at what I wasted my time doing."  ...  Remember how I filled out that MB workbook.  Remember how we sat in that classroom on Monday nights or that Saturday morning.  Look I've got all four citizen badges.  

I know others might not like it, but the back of a few of my son's sash'es have really cool things they have done.  High adventure base patches.  National parks / monuments.  IMHO, the back of their sash is more about bragging rights than the front. 

I really wish the front of the MB sash was for real bragging rights too.  How about a stripe (or tent) for every 20 nights of camping.  How about another wheel for every 50 miles of biking.  Another pear of shoes patch for every 25 miles of hiking.  etc, etc, etc. 

I wish scouting was a great bucket list activity.  

 

 

Like this award?  https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/noa/

 

[Eagle1993]

26 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Originally, Baden-Powell created scouting during urbanization and the loss of scout-craft.  Using the military like structure that alienates many.  Using archaic skills (heresy, but often viewed this way) that many now just don't care about.

While I am not 100% on board with everything Mike Rowe says, I think he has a lot of valid points.  We need someone, like a Mike Rowe, who sees the gaps that exist in kids today and how scouting can fill them. 

I would be perfectly happy with less emphasis on advancement/uniforms and more emphasis on exploring skills and getting outdoors, adventure and patrols/youth leadership.   

I bring this up as any group that is facing crisis must ask ... why are we here?  I wonder ... what if we eliminate all ranks in Scouts BSA except Eagle.  I'm not saying we do that, but personally, I could see how some bold changes like that could help improve the program and focus units/volunteers are areas more critical to the mission. 

In any case ... I hope there is a Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill out there who has a vision of scouting in the 2020 & beyond. 

[fred8033]

13 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Like this award?  https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/noa/

Absolutely.  My youngest son has that on the back of his sash too.   I'm not a fan of the metal pin devices to count extra, but it's one way. 

I'd like to see bragging rights recognition like that.  Heck, if for every 25 nights, my oldest could have earned it 10 times before he aged out.  My youngest 5 times.  ... me ... I've lost count.

Edited February 2, 2022 by fred8033