Unit Recharter Struggles

[Eagle1993]

16 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I am not a lawyer.  However, I think it boils down to the fact that you do not have a current charter.  You are NOT authorized to use BSA's name.  Most if not all BSA materials are trademarked and copyrighted.  And any advancement that occurs after 12/31/2021 will not be recognized and recorded by BSA.  You are NOT covered by BSA insurance and, as you pointed out, a "broad release" form would be worthless.  I would cancel everything until a new CO is found, or transfer to a unit in good standing.

 

I see a two month grace period referenced here:

2022-Charter-Renewal-Handbook-Revised-24-Aug-2021.pdf (ncacbsa.org)

In addition, I know units have been able to register for HA bases without active charters.

However, I would not want to be in a situation where someone was hurt or worse and be looking at grace periods/etc.  If it looks like this is more than a minor correction in internet rechartering or sending in a check, I would absolutely look at finding a new CO immediately (or getting the council to agree to the facility use permit).

 

[Eagle94-A1]

20 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I see a two month grace period referenced here:

2022-Charter-Renewal-Handbook-Revised-24-Aug-2021.pdf (ncacbsa.org)

From my days as a DE, there was a 2 month buffer period, that way if there are any paperwork issues, it can be resolved.

 

I would save a copy of this document because BSA does have an Orwellian habit of removing documents, i.e. documents that stated Dodge Ball and its variants were indeed approved games prior to 2018.

[DuctTape]

I would think any "buffer" would be included into any charter agreement. The agreement would run until Feb 28/29. If the agreement states an end at Dec 31st, then the "two month buffer" is Nov& Dec. 

I am not an attorney, but mine has repeatedly  told me that "unless it is in the contract, it doesn't exist".

 

I would think the Chartering Agreement should include what is in the Handbook, as the agreement is what gets signed by both parties.

Edited January 13, 2022 by DuctTape

[qwazse]

@InquisitiveScouter, ours seems to have gone through. But, maybe because we were merging troops (again) this year and transferring a lot of scouts, we got pushed through. We made sure clearances were well organized three months ago.

I haven't seen a certificate yet, but that's not much of a surprise. The transferred scouts are now visible to us, so something worked.

[yknot]

In multiple places, it is stated that lapsed units lose their BSA insurance until their paperwork is completed. After two months, it becomes a dropped unit and I believe you lose your unit number. The exception might be UMC units who have negotiated a March extension which is likely memorialized in formal documents. If we have learned anything from this bankruptcy process, it's not to take anything on good faith unless you have it in writing. We also know that councils often have incomplete, out of date, or wrong information. The suggestion to put it back on the CO to make the judgement call is not a bad one however they have already in essence told you that they don't want to "own" you or even agreed to your facilities agreement.

 

 

[Armymutt]

What diocese are you in?  The Diocese of Raleigh sees Scouting as an integral part of the church.  It's amazing to see the variation across the country.  Here is the most recent release from the diocese: https://dioceseofraleigh.org/scouting/catholic-scouting

[MattR]

4 hours ago, scoutldr said:

You are NOT covered by BSA insurance and, as you pointed out, a "broad release" form would be worthless.  I would cancel everything until a new CO is found, or transfer to a unit in good standing.

Or call it an official church youth group activity? Leave the uniforms and handbooks at home, have fun, play in the outdoors. If the church is up for accepting the responsibility then it's all good. If not, it's an opportunity to fix something that has been broken for quite some time.

 

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, MattR said:

Or call it an official church youth group activity? Leave the uniforms and handbooks at home, have fun, play in the outdoors. If the church is up for accepting the responsibility then it's all good. If not, it's an opportunity to fix something that has been broken for quite some time.

It just won’t count for camping nights!

[InquisitiveScouter]

19 hours ago, qwazse said:

@InquisitiveScouter, ours seems to have gone through. But, maybe because we were merging troops (again) this year and transferring a lot of scouts, we got pushed through. We made sure clearances were well organized three months ago.

I haven't seen a certificate yet, but that's not much of a surprise. The transferred scouts are now visible to us, so something worked.

Ours just went through yesterday.  We have a charter until 31 Dec 2022!  Now, I'll ask if our charter agreement has actually been signed for the year?  (Since our unit has unilaterally handled the last four years doing this [coordinating all signatures on the document and delivering it to council], my sense is we will have to do it again this year...)  

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:04 PM, Armymutt said:

What diocese are you in?  The Diocese of Raleigh sees Scouting as an integral part of the church.  It's amazing to see the variation across the country.  Here is the most recent release from the diocese: https://dioceseofraleigh.org/scouting/catholic-scouting

Midwest.

No troops in our Diocese have rechartered.  I'll stay in touch.

 

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:02 PM, qwazse said:

It just won’t count for camping nights!

Well, I guess it just it depends on who is doing the counting.

And, frankly, your comment is just obtuse.

I cannot adhere to rules prescribed for third graders which were written by second graders (National 

staff.)

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

52 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Well, I guess it just it depends on who is doing the counting.

And, frankly, your comment is just obtuse.

I cannot adhere to rules prescribed for third graders which were written by second graders (National 

staff.)

 

I took it as a joke.  @qwazse?

[qwazse]

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I took it as a joke.  @qwazse?

Glad someone got a laugh. But for anyone who wants to take this seriously …

23 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Well, I guess it just it depends on who is doing the counting.

And, frankly, your comment is just obtuse.

I cannot adhere to rules prescribed for third graders which were written by second graders (National staff.)

One line of thinking is that this rechartering delay is an adult debacle. So, indeed, if the scouts pull of their camp out, even if it’s essentially under the auspices of he CO with no help from BSA, they should be recognized for it. And chances are, your council advancement committee would agree.

On the other hand, when I was a kid, campouts — especially in winter — were just for fun as @MattR described. If you told me the night would not meet the “under the auspices of BSA” requirement as written, I’d still show up with my pack ready to go. Given what I now know about about the current training that the Catholic Church requires of their volunteers, I’d be happy to send my kid on an overnight with their youth group.

Hopefully you’ll hear back from the council’s registrar and all of this will be a non issue.

But, if requirements for advancement are malleable rules “written by second graders”, why let 6th graders pursue the award at all?

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:09 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ours just went through yesterday.  We have a charter until 31 Dec 2022!  Now, I'll ask if our charter agreement has actually been signed for the year?  (Since our unit has unilaterally handled the last four years doing this [coordinating all signatures on the document and delivering it to council], my sense is we will have to do it again this year...)  

Nope, no signed Annual Charter Agreement.  I'll run one around for signatures, just so our CO is covered.  This is the document that binds the BSA to cover the CO with insurance.

So, do your registrars issue you a unit charter without having this form completed?

http://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Annual-Charter-Agreement-Charter-Organizations-.pdf

Ours has for the past five years...

Hmmmm

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

Glad someone got a laugh. But for anyone who wants to take this seriously …

One line of thinking is that this rechartering delay is an adult debacle. So, indeed, if the scouts pull of their camp out, even if it’s essentially under the auspices of he CO with no help from BSA, they should be recognized for it. And chances are, your council advancement committee would agree.

On the other hand, when I was a kid, campouts — especially in winter — were just for fun as @MattR described. If you told me the night would not meet the “under the auspices of BSA” requirement as written, I’d still show up with my pack ready to go. Given what I now know about about the current training that the Catholic Church requires of their volunteers, I’d be happy to send my kid on an overnight with their youth group.

Hopefully you’ll hear back from the council’s registrar and all of this will be a non issue.

But, if requirements for advancement are malleable rules “written by second graders”, why let 6th graders pursue the award at all?

Yes, the only thing I think would bring it to a full stop is a Cease and Desist Letter from council...then you are officially no longer under the auspices.

I totally agree with you: never let the adult side of things hold a Scout back from advancement...