Unit Recharter Struggles

[SiouxRanger]

It is official, our Catholic Diocese will not charter ANY BSA units. Somewhere between 30 to 50 units being dumped. ("Well, our Troop Committee can count about a dozen in our immediate area, and the Diocese is huge, so 20 to 60?) Lots.

Worst fears realized. (Started the inquiries in October, 2021, guidance issued 4-19-2022.) Thanks.

Nearly 80± years of sponsorship tradition DEAD.

Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

So, our Troop (and Pack) has several options:

1.  Suffer a DEchartering and wish all the scouts and parents "Good Luck." (Our Council has informed us that this is looming-"You can't meet, wear uniforms... (...well, I will resist comment...a bit))

2.  Encourage and assist scouts and parents to transfer to other units (allows them to continue to officially work on and be recognized for advancement).  We have a number approaching Eagle.  This is the "quail" solution-everyone scatters.  

3.  Merge our unit's scouts with another unit.  This option could work well or go horribly wrong, depending on how the parents of the merging scouts react to a lessening of their role in the troop (pack) merged into.

4.  Find another Chartering Organization, but enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with our current Parish, former chartering organization.  A seamless transition, as far as the scouts are concerned.  Keep meeting at the same place with their same friends and same adult leaders.  (Adult paperwork changes, but scouts see no change.)

5.  Find another Chartering Organization which will provide new facilities for the Troop's (and Pack's) meetings. Change of chartering organization (scouts probably will not notice), BUT change of meeting location, which scouts will certainly notice.

HOWEVER, a unit changing its chartering organization raises the specter of the unit having to FORFEIT all of its assets to the former chartering organization leaving the transferring unit penniless and devoid of equipment.

Oh, Happy Day.

Not so, as my units have no answers.

Suggestions?

[SiouxRanger]

Scoutmaster of defunct troop:  "Would your organization be willing to sponsor a Scout Troop-we've been a troop for 64 years?"

Prospective Chartering Organizational Head:  "Who sponsored your troop before?"

Scoutmaster of defunct troop:  "A Catholic parish now concerned over liability for abuse and molestation claims."

Prospective Chartering Organizational Head:  "Well, do you have insurance insuring against abuse and molestation claims that might be asserted against my organization?"

Scoutmaster of defunct troop:  "We don't know, we asked, but have no answer."

Prospective Chartering Organizational Head:  "Sorry, good luck."

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

It is official, our Catholic Diocese will not charter ANY BSA units. Somewhere between 30 to 50 units being dumped. ("Well, our Troop Committee can count about a dozen in our immediate area, and the Diocese is huge, so 20 to 60?) Lots.

Worst fears realized. (Started the inquiries in October, 2021, guidance issued 4-19-2022.) Thanks.

Nearly 80± years of sponsorship tradition DEAD.

Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

So, our Troop (and Pack) has several options:

1.  Suffer a DEchartering and wish all the scouts and parents "Good Luck." (Our Council has informed us that this is looming-"You can't meet, wear uniforms... (...well, I will resist comment...a bit))

2.  Encourage and assist scouts and parents to transfer to other units (allows them to continue to officially work on and be recognized for advancement).  We have a number approaching Eagle.  This is the "quail" solution-everyone scatters.  

3.  Merge our unit's scouts with another unit.  This option could work well or go horribly wrong, depending on how the parents of the merging scouts react to a lessening of their role in the troop (pack) merged into.

4.  Find another Chartering Organization, but enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with our current Parish, former chartering organization.  A seamless transition, as far as the scouts are concerned.  Keep meeting at the same place with their same friends and same adult leaders.  (Adult paperwork changes, but scouts see no change.)

5.  Find another Chartering Organization which will provide new facilities for the Troop's (and Pack's) meetings. Change of chartering organization (scouts probably will not notice), BUT change of meeting location, which scouts will certainly notice.

HOWEVER, a unit changing its chartering organization raises the specter of the unit having to FORFEIT all of its assets to the former chartering organization leaving the transferring unit penniless and devoid of equipment.

Oh, Happy Day.

Not so, as my units have no answers.

Suggestions?

Option 6.  Create your own 501 c(3), "Troop XX Boosters" or some such...  Become your own chartering org, sign your facilities agreement, carry on...  Transparent to your Scouts.

[PACAN]

If you don't want to post your diocese please PM me separately 

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

I agree with earlier ... work to make this as transparent to the scouts and scout families as possible.  Ideally, this should not affect them.

Equipment / money ...  I've seen many changes over the years.  There has only been problems with money / equipment when there is bad blood between people.  That does not sound the case here.  ... and to be honest ... I would delicately just ask for a letter saying ... "Troop #### is released from <previous charter> with it's equipment, resources and funds to continue by being chartered under a new charter org.".   Then ask your existing charter to sign at the bottom of the memo.   That's all you need.  ... DO NOT OVER EMPHASIZE THE MONEY QUESTION.  IT CAUSES PEOPLE TO GO THE WRONG DIRECTION WITH THINKING.  Just ask so you are releasing the troop, it's equipment and it's funds right?  

Facility Use & Insurance & Catholic Youth Protection Training ... I'm really confused.  Perhaps this is something that you can ask further about.   If the church is only offering the building for use ... like it would for voter registration, election nights, AA meetings, public events, etc, then why would the church require more than minimal information.  ... Proof of insurance.  Ok.  That's common when lending a building.  Our school district required it and our council provided (to me to give to school district) an insurance binding statement.  Easy and quick.  ...   BUT ... Catholic YP is for programs your diocese runs.  ... If the diocese is requiring Catholic YP, then the diocese and church are taking responsibility (read as liability) for your unit.  If someone violates their YP, how do they know?  How do they know if everyone is trained?  Will they see the roster?  What are their audits?  ... Facility Use agreement and requiring Catholic YP is an oxymoron.  ... fyi ... I like the idea of having it, but it seems contradictory.

So ... Are they offering space for use as they would for many external organizations?  Or are they overseeing some amount of the unit and thus requiring Catholic YP ?

Edited April 21, 2022 by fred8033

[jcousino]

5 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Option 6.  Create your own 501 c(3), "Troop XX Boosters" or some such...  Become your own chartering org, sign your facilities agreement, carry on...  Transparent to your Scouts.

Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

28 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.

 

What "signers"?  The risk is the same as for your current CO...and the charter agreement has BSA providing insurance under that agreement.

[InquisitiveScouter]

37 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.

 

The risk of personal criminal or civil liability on the part of individual nonprofit board members is small but difficult to quantify. It is important to note that exercising poor judgment, relying on an expert whose advice is later determined to be faulty, or making a decision based on incomplete information rarely lead to personal liability on the part of individual board members. This means that board members who act in good faith and with diligence and care, are unlikely to be held personally responsible for their actions on the nonprofit’s behalf. However, there are a number of specific situations that create or increase the exposure to personal liability, such as:

• Actions and activity that intentionally cause injury, harm or damage to persons or property
• Personal participation in the tortious conduct of a nonprofit’s employees (tortious conduct is conduct that subjects the actor to civil liability under the law)
• The knowing approval of criminal acts or active involvement in criminal activities by the organization
• Personal involvement in a contract involving the nonprofit that is tainted by fraud
• Active participation in a transaction approved by the board with an entity in which the board member had a substantial personal or financial interest.

https://nonprofitrisk.org/resources/articles/liability-and-the-board-what-governing-teams-need-to-know/

Edited April 21, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

And guess what...any of those actions can result in problems for any individual acting in any capacity (like an adult leader in Scouting)  (except maybe the last one)

[SiouxRanger]

5 hours ago, PACAN said:

If you don't want to post your diocese please PM me separately 

To what end? How would that help?

 

[T2Eagle]

1 hour ago, jcousino said:

Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.

 

there are lots of questions and answers needed specific to an individual situation, but the whole point of corporations is that they separate the owners of the corporation from individual liability.  When GM gets sued the shareholders of GM can't be held liable.

More analogous to this situation, three guys want to start a business, say a canoe livery service, so they form a corporation.   They hire an employee, that employee does something stupid and someone gets hurt, the corporation gets sued, but the only assets at risk are the assets owned by the corporation.   The assets of the individuals: their homes, bank accounts, cash etc. are not at jeopardy.

Somewhat closer analogy, you live in a neighborhood that has a homeowners association.  The HOA is a non profit corporation, the homeowners all own the corporation, they hire an employee who does something stupid, the assets of the HOA, probably nothing more than a current checking account are in jeapordy, but none of the homeowners can be sued or forced to pay anything.  Even if the HOA is sued into bankruptcy, after all its assets are gone the homeowners just start a new non profit and keep on rolling.

[T2Eagle]

2 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

To what end? How would that help?

 

There may be others from your diocese reading the forum, maybe they have ideas, maybe they're looking for help.

[T2Eagle]

13 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

It is official, our Catholic Diocese will not charter ANY BSA units. Somewhere between 30 to 50 units being dumped. ("Well, our Troop Committee can count about a dozen in our immediate area, and the Diocese is huge, so 20 to 60?) Lots.

Worst fears realized. (Started the inquiries in October, 2021, guidance issued 4-19-2022.) Thanks.

Nearly 80± years of sponsorship tradition DEAD.

Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

So, our Troop (and Pack) has several options:

1.  Suffer a DEchartering and wish all the scouts and parents "Good Luck." (Our Council has informed us that this is looming-"You can't meet, wear uniforms... (...well, I will resist comment...a bit))

2.  Encourage and assist scouts and parents to transfer to other units (allows them to continue to officially work on and be recognized for advancement).  We have a number approaching Eagle.  This is the "quail" solution-everyone scatters.  

3.  Merge our unit's scouts with another unit.  This option could work well or go horribly wrong, depending on how the parents of the merging scouts react to a lessening of their role in the troop (pack) merged into.

4.  Find another Chartering Organization, but enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with our current Parish, former chartering organization.  A seamless transition, as far as the scouts are concerned.  Keep meeting at the same place with their same friends and same adult leaders.  (Adult paperwork changes, but scouts see no change.)

5.  Find another Chartering Organization which will provide new facilities for the Troop's (and Pack's) meetings. Change of chartering organization (scouts probably will not notice), BUT change of meeting location, which scouts will certainly notice.

HOWEVER, a unit changing its chartering organization raises the specter of the unit having to FORFEIT all of its assets to the former chartering organization leaving the transferring unit penniless and devoid of equipment.

Oh, Happy Day.

Not so, as my units have no answers.

Suggestions?

What about the Facilities Use/Chartered by Council option?

[yknot]

38 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

What "signers"?  The risk is the same as for your current CO...and the charter agreement has BSA providing insurance under that agreement.

COs are dropping scout charters not because they are horrified by the abuse scandals but because of liability concerns. The liability landscape has changed dynamically and is continuing to change. I would not recommend taking on risk based on past experience because it's meaningless going forward. Everyone is looking to reasign risk and liability. BSA insurance provisions are actually unclear and attempts to gain clarity from national are unsuccessful. That's why some COs have been dropping units. As I've advised before, anyone can sue you for anything and even if you are proven blameless, you can spend a lot of time dealing with a very stressful situation, having to hire a lawyer, attending hearings, and taking time off from work until it's resolved.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, yknot said:

As I've advised before, anyone can sue you for anything and even if you are proven blameless, you can spend a lot of time dealing with a very stressful situation, having to hire a lawyer, attending hearings, and taking time off from work until it's resolved.

Agreed...which begs the question, why even be a Scout leader, if this is the case?