Council finances

[Muttsy]

Maybe that would be a good thing to have scouting authority vested in the locals, a federation of local councils under a new banner. ..Scouting USA with strict oversight of its operations regarding child protection by outside, independent monitors. 

[vol_scouter]

2 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Maybe that would be a good thing to have scouting authority vested in the locals, a federation of local councils under a new banner. ..Scouting USA with strict oversight of its operations regarding child protection by outside, independent monitors. 

A better and more strict youth protection program is more feasible in the current structure rather than a federation of local councils dominated by the largest councils.  Scouting would no longer be the same everywhere because the authority to have one set of requirements would be replaced by local variations.  My opinion is that it would be a far less desirable situation than now.  However, these lawsuits will not end the movement - Scouting will go on.

[mrjohns2]

27 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Another point of clarification, until just recently (last 1-3 years), all registration fees went directly to the national council with none going to the local council.  Some units (packs, troop, crews, ships, etc) collect some extra that remains in the unit, but it is frowned upon. 

I think that has been true for a long, long time, maybe "forever".

I don't think unit dues are frowned upon. They are separate, but not frowned upon. 

[vol_scouter]

1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

I don't think unit dues are frowned upon. They are separate, but not frowned upon. 

In clarification, unit dues are frowned upon only if part of registration - it is desirable make it clear what is required for registration and what are dues.  However, national does not try to prevent the two from being bundled.

[T2Eagle]

21 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Maybe that would be a good thing to have scouting authority vested in the locals, a federation of local councils under a new banner. ..Scouting USA with strict oversight of its operations regarding child protection by outside, independent monitors. 

I typed this once and it didn't seem to post.

Maybe that organizational design would be better.  You can make the same arguments for and against that you can make for any federalist system in a country as large and diverse as ours.  You can look back in this forums for lots of discussion of the pros and cons of "local option".

More local control could better allow some councils to tailor their program to meet the needs of their local community, but I think there would also be places in the country that would not have made or continue to allow the recent membership changes: the acceptance of non heterosexual leaders and scouts, and the implementation of full membership for girls.  I think those changes have been very positive, and would be unhappy to see them regress, but lots of other folks feel differently.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

A better and more strict youth protection program is more feasible in the current structure rather than a federation of local councils dominated by the largest councils.  Scouting would no longer be the same everywhere because the authority to have one set of requirements would be replaced by local variations.  My opinion is that it would be a far less desirable situation than now.  However, these lawsuits will not end the movement - Scouting will go on.

I don't think so. The current structure simply doesn't work and that's why there have been so many problems. Maybe a loose federation of independent local councils would result in the responsibility for oversight clearly residing in one place: the local level. The way it is now there are simply too many cracks in the floor for problems to fall into and no oversight or real consequences. 

[MattR]

3 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Scouting would no longer be the same everywhere because the authority to have one set of requirements would be replaced by local variations.  My opinion is that it would be a far less desirable situation than now.  However, these lawsuits will not end the movement - Scouting will go on.

The same was said when Ma Bell was broken up,

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

Yesterday, I learned that our scout executive's salary plus retirement fund contribution, for last year was just shy of 50% of the Council's budget. (The retirement contribution was HALF of salary.)

SMH

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

Yesterday, I learned that our scout executive's salary plus retirement fund contribution, for last year was just shy of 50% of the Council's budget. (The retirement contribution was HALF of salary.)

 

Could start a whole thread on the way councils spend their money.  It's not pretty.

All volunteers should look at their council's 990 IRS form.  Gotta scroll through the pages.  One section details total compensation of any staff member over $100K,  Can be interesting.  Also the first page shows the income and expense.  Then the expense is detailed. In our council boatloads of money spent on the office expenses and occupancy (literally 23% of expenses).  

When you see the compensation levels, then do the math, the whole "fair share" selling point for FOS is really what they need.  In our council less than 25% of the staff are unit facing.  The rest are management and overhead.  Maybe if they tightened things up be more receptive to that.  Personally, my money stays local in the troop.  Not really convinced the council are great stewards of the money.

[1980Scouter]

I never paid much attention to council finances and salaries until the bankruptcy and my LC sold a camp I cared for.

I could not believe what the SE salary and benefits cost my council. And for a medium sized council to have 40 FTE's and to spend over 3 million on wages seemed crazy to me.

Maybe bankruptcy will result in streamlined LC costs and more focus on program. I know many councils survived off of investment earnings of large endowments. If they go away in bankruptcy they will have to really decide what is necessary staff wise.

If LC's would lose their office buildings in bankruptcy I think that could work out better than losing as many camps. With technology today most can work remotely with little issues. Make a building at camp into an office/store and you get better camp use too. I don't think it matters much if camps with the new offices are outside of the center of the council either. Many things can be done electronically or via Fed Ex. Have someone in the office on weekends at camp too.

[MattR]

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Could start a whole thread on the way councils spend their money. 

 

8 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

but that is another whole thread

 

Done.

Edited January 10, 2022 by MattR

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Yesterday, I learned that our scout executive's salary plus retirement fund contribution, for last year was just shy of 50% of the Council's budget. (The retirement contribution was HALF of salary.)

You must be in a very small council.  

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Oh no...all salary and benefits paid out of the funds from the local council.  You can see this on any IRS Form 990 for your local council.  If you need a link, post your council, and I'll try to put in here.

Correct.  My understanding is financially and employment wise, there is a clean separation between national employees and council staff.  That's been emphasized for 20 years when I talk with the scout shop staff about who they work for.  Scout Shop staff = National (product sales).  Council staff is local.  

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

I did not say that, but the local councils are separate 501(c)3 not for profit corporations who are in the business of out of school child development.  My feeling is that they will continue with their mission without a national council or charter but will not be able to use BSA registered intellectual property.  They can continue to have camps, fund raise, have units and outdoor activities.  Just because the BSA no longer exists will not make them go out of business.

Correct.  The charter agreement ... like a franchise agreement ... is not a mutual suicide pact.  If one business partner fails, the other has a right to try to continue with the assets they own.

If BSA did convert to chapter 7 liquidation and stop operating, ...

• Finances 
  • Dues?  Healthier councils if dues kept local?  20,000 scouts at current dues is $1.4m.  Event cut in half, that would be significant to the local council budget.  
  • Cheaper scouting?  Scout stuff / shop is NOT cheap.  PDF rank books?  3rd party standard clothing?  
• Intellectual property
  • Would local councils form an association to purchase IP in auction?   Ground Round franchisees did this when Ground Round corporate went out of business.  Those restaurants continued operation (not sure how long) without the corporate franchisor.  
  • Would local councils collectively sue the BSA chapter 7 bankruptcy for damages caused by BSA going out of business ... rebranding, breaking franchise agreement, etc. 
  • Only some of the IP has critical value.  "Boy Scouts of America" and "Eagle Scout" are the big brands.  Some secondary IP such as "tenderfoot", but nothing that can't be refactored, etc.  Many of terms are public domain:  troop, patrol, etc.  ...  Seriously ...  not many people have strong allegiance to "Arrow of Light" rank or award.  If it had to change, the future of scouting would not be significantly damanged.  
• Business infrastructure ... collectively negotiated health care and retirement programs.  That could transition though.

 

SIDE COMMENT ... I was wondering about IP and franchisees when franchisor goes out of business.  ... 

• National charter ... I know it's honorific, but it is also law.
  • http://www.usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsacharter.asp
  • "Perpetual Existence" - Except as otherwise provided, the corporation has perpetual existence."  ... I'm assuming the "except" is refering to acquiring and selling property.  Suing and being sued.  So, BSA property can be sold, but BSA the company can not go out of existence?  
    • How does this affect ... right to sell IP during liquidation?  The name "Boy Scouts of America" is immediately of little IP value as it will continue to exist ... or could exist again in the future.
    • Does this allow a future president to re-establish BSA and appointing a new BSA governing body?  Imagine a future strong willed president ... a long-term scouter and Eagle scout ... decides we need our youth outside more ... can he simply re-incorporate BSA as it is perpetual existing and he's the executive who can execute the USA laws?
  • BSA "is a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia" - I really don't understand why the suit simily doesn't sue the US government for negligence.  Or sue the District of Columbia.  As Purdue Pharma has owner liabilities, it seems this company is not separate from the US government in many ways.  Heck, BSA delivered report to Congress (per the same law) and directly put it in the hands of the President every year.  

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by fred8033

[scoutldr]

I was in a 500 level Council.  The last time I looked at the 990, maybe 10 years ago, there were only 2 employees listed over $50K.  One was the SE at around $220K.  The other was the Field Director.