New California law regarding volunteers and others working with youth.

[skeptic]

https://mandatedreporterca.com/training/volunteers

 

 I thought I had posted something, but cannot find it.  We were notified in the last day or two by council of the new law, and I have already taken the online certification and received the official coverage from the state.  Working out the connected fingerprinting is still in limbo.  The law does not appear to allow for them picking up already printed individuals from other mandated areas, such as teachers.  I had to be printed as a credentialed teacher, in order to work.  So you would think that file could be appenede, but currently they are looking at a separate method.  Seems not only poor planning, but also it is annoying, as there is of course an expense involved.  Fingerprints do not change normally, so why not just marry the files, especially ones like mine that allowed me to teach for two decades or so.  What do I know, other than governmental processes are often bloated and poorly designed.

[InquisitiveScouter]

37 minutes ago, skeptic said:

https://mandatedreporterca.com/training/volunteers

 

 I thought I had posted something, but cannot find it.  We were notified in the last day or two by council of the new law, and I have already taken the online certification and received the official coverage from the state.  Working out the connected fingerprinting is still in limbo.  The law does not appear to allow for them picking up already printed individuals from other mandated areas, such as teachers.  I had to be printed as a credentialed teacher, in order to work.  So you would think that file could be appenede, but currently they are looking at a separate method.  Seems not only poor planning, but also it is annoying, as there is of course an expense involved.  Fingerprints do not change normally, so why not just marry the files, especially ones like mine that allowed me to teach for two decades or so.  What do I know, other than governmental processes are often bloated and poorly designed.

Sounds like similar growing pains we went through in Pennsylvania.

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

The law does not appear to allow for them picking up already printed individuals from other mandated areas, such as teachers.  I had to be printed as a credentialed teacher, in order to work.  So you would think that file could be appenede, but currently they are looking at a separate method.  Seems not only poor planning, but also it is annoying, as there is of course an expense involved.  Fingerprints do not change normally, so why not just marry the files, especially ones like mine that allowed me to teach for two decades or so.  What do I know, other than governmental processes are often bloated and poorly designed.

The Fingerprinter's Union lobby is a powerful group.  They are always looking for new revenue streams.  Govco is paying off it's supporters 😁

[qwazse]

12 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Sounds like similar growing pains we went through in Pennsylvania.

On the other hand, now that PA’s law is in place, I find working with it to be very convenient. It’s very handy to have a standard process for every youth organization I volunteer with.

[T2Eagle]

21 hours ago, skeptic said:

https://mandatedreporterca.com/training/volunteers

 

 I thought I had posted something, but cannot find it.  We were notified in the last day or two by council of the new law, and I have already taken the online certification and received the official coverage from the state.  Working out the connected fingerprinting is still in limbo.  The law does not appear to allow for them picking up already printed individuals from other mandated areas, such as teachers.  I had to be printed as a credentialed teacher, in order to work.  So you would think that file could be appenede, but currently they are looking at a separate method.  Seems not only poor planning, but also it is annoying, as there is of course an expense involved.  Fingerprints do not change normally, so why not just marry the files, especially ones like mine that allowed me to teach for two decades or so.  What do I know, other than governmental processes are often bloated and poorly designed.

The thing about fingerprints is that they're not tied to a any particular file or record, they're proof that you are who you say you are.  Your fingerprints aren't going to reveal anything special about Teacher Skeptic that a search using your name, birthdate, ss#, etc. wouldn't reveal.  What they do is prove that SM Skeptic is the same person as Teacher Skeptic.

[skeptic]

Yep; and they are on file already with the state teaching department.  So, since that is the case, simply addend them from the teaching file to the BSA/Volunteer file?  No additional prints then need to be done.  Of course, I may also have prints from my short time in the Peace Corp, and not sure if they printed us in the military.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

9 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Yep; and they are on file already with the state teaching department.  So, since that is the case, simply addend them from the teaching file to the BSA/Volunteer file?  No additional prints then need to be done.  Of course, I may also have prints from my short time in the Peace Corp, and not sure if they printed us in the military.  

In PA, it isn't just the fingerprints...they must fingerprint you and run those through the FBI database.  Costs about $25, and must be done every five years, until you reach 10 years of PA residency.  At that point, you may file an Affidavit stating such, and that you have not committed certain offenses (these offenses would appear on your PA State Police Criminal Check, which is also required.)

https://www.dhs.pa.gov/KeepKidsSafe/Resources/Documents/Disclosure Statement for Volunteers.pdf

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

In PA, it isn't just the fingerprints...they must fingerprint you and run those through the FBI database.  Costs about $25, and must be done every five years, until you reach 10 years of PA residency.  At that point, you may file an Affidavit stating such, and that you have not committed certain offenses (these offenses would appear on your PA State Police Criminal Check, which is also required.)

https://www.dhs.pa.gov/KeepKidsSafe/Resources/Documents/Disclosure Statement for Volunteers.pdf

I guess I do not understand finger printing.  It has always been my belief that once they have your prints, unless something occurs to affect the fingers, they will be the same.  Not sure if that follows with age, though, other than size, I believe the basic pattern is the same.  So, what is the point of requiring new printing if they already exist?

 

[skeptic]

Just now, skeptic said:

I guess I do not understand finger printing.  It has always been my belief that once they have your prints, unless something occurs to affect the fingers, they will be the same.  Not sure if that follows with age, though, other than size, I believe the basic pattern is the same.  So, what is the point of requiring new printing if they already exist?

 

Next likely step may be saying we all have to have DNA tests?

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I guess I do not understand finger printing.  It has always been my belief that once they have your prints, unless something occurs to affect the fingers, they will be the same.  Not sure if that follows with age, though, other than size, I believe the basic pattern is the same.  So, what is the point of requiring new printing if they already exist?

 

Ahhh...because they are checking for that fingerprint being matched to criminal records for other names, aliases, false identities, etc.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Next likely step may be saying we all have to have DNA tests?

Yes, you will see more biometrics use in the future, I'm sure of it.

[skeptic]

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ahhh...because they are checking for that fingerprint being matched to criminal records for other names, aliases, false identities, etc.  

Still, could that not be done with the one already on file?  What am I missing?  Or is it to see if you match the one already on file perhaps?  Our council has indicated they will attempt to offset some of the cost that might be incurred, though not sure  how that might work, as it has not been set up yet.  

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Fingerprints can change due to physical injury (burns) or intentional disfigurement, as well.

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/US/crooks-erase-past-erasing-fingerprints/story?id=11236512

[yknot]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

Still, could that not be done with the one already on file?  What am I missing?  Or is it to see if you match the one already on file perhaps?  Our council has indicated they will attempt to offset some of the cost that might be incurred, though not sure  how that might work, as it has not been set up yet.  

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but that is prohibited by federal law.  

[fred8033]

I'm curious.  

Back in the 1970s and maybe 1980s, it was difficult to identify if someone was the same person.  People could change names, etc or use part of the name differently.  Now, that's much more difficult to get an ID.  Not impossible, but more difficult.  

Having read thru many IVF files ... only a very small percent involved people re-registering with different names.  And again that was back in the 1960s/70s/80s(?) ...  I did not see any after background checks started in the 2000s.  

I'm not a conspiracy person.  Seriously.  I don't believe people are sophisiticated enough to be successful with conspiracies. 

BUT ... I don't believe finger prints will prevent CSA by known leaders.  This smells more like a first step to just requiring all citizens to be fingerprinted.  It's like needing to pre-emptively prove you have not committed a crime.  As a parent of four kids (who helped at my kid's school) and volunteer at my church and having been a college freshman who helped with his preivous high school team ... not to mention adult scout leader and helping briefly with my kids youth sport ... it feels like I would have had to hand over my finger prints pre-emptively at some point.  ... Why just not require all people in the US as part of getting an official ID (drivers license, state ID, etc) to be finger printed and DNA sampled?  I'm really not sure there is much of a difference.  ... I'm not sure if I'm for or against it.  It just feels a bit wacked that people think finger printing will reduce CSA.    

QUESTION - Are there recent incidents (2000+) where a youth program that does background checks had someone circumvent an effective background check to abuse?  Are there cases where finger prints would have scared someone away?  Or would have pre-emptively caught someone with bad intentions?

I only ask as I like that our country believes in innocent until proven guilty.  Supplying biometrics begins to smell of national IDs and tracking the citizens in even more detail.  ... Perhaps that's where we are at.  

Also, it seems like this re-directs down a bad path back toward "stranger danger" understanding of abuse versus the understanding of grooming by known people/friends/family.  

Edited January 2, 2022 by fred8033