Youth Protection, 18-20 year olds, women leaders

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, elitts said:

I think at least part of the issue is the general difference between Cubs and Scouts and finding women who can leave "mom" at home.  My experience has been that moms have a significantly harder time dealing with the chaos of "scout-led" without wanting to step in to help/comfort/fix whatever problems come up.  At least, that's what a number of the moms in my troop have said about themselves.  Of course, in my old Cub pack, we didn't have many moms going on camp-outs either.  Even when moms were the ones helping at den meetings and doing most of the Cub activities, it was almost always the dads that ended up on the campouts.  Though summer camp was a little different.  I think the male:female ratio at summer camp was more like 40:60 rather than the 20:80 we would get on regular campouts.

Sometimes that's true but sometimes it's more perception than reality. Case in point one camp out upon arrival a female ASM immediately pointed out scouts were setting up hammocks under deadfall with high winds forecast. The SM told her not to interfere with scouts. An hour later a male ASM upon arrival immediately ordered scouts to move the hammocks because they had set them up under deadfall with high winds forecast. He was thanked by the SM. It was the attempt at tactfulness by the female ASM vs. the direct approach by the male ASM that made the difference in how the action was perceived.  The mom was perceived as helicoptering. The dad was perceived as being decisive.  

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

The usage of alcohol by abusers to entice victims for sexual pleasure/perversion was one of the most common methods used

When I read follow on posts that came after this where only the merits of the brand and other brands are discussed but not one condemnation I wonder if this practice of taking alcohol on campouts by adults still occur.

 

 

It was quite common to see the adults smoking a pipe or having a beer after dinner, when I was a tenderfoot but that was over 50 years ago.   The word went around in the early '80s that we needed to set the best example we possibly could for the scouts.  So no drinking and if you absolutely have to have a smoke, kindly take a hike over the hill a quarter mile away.  I knew a few SMs who ignored these rules and were quietly relieved from duty as a result. One event I'll never forget happened in '79  I had to forcibly take a large knife away from a very drunk 14 year old, who was staggering around slashing at the air, while shouting challenges to all comers  Seems he had discovered some of the staff's beer stash. The camp director gave them 10 minutes to pack and be off the property.  

So yes it happened.   But less and less as time went by..  

 

 

[69RoadRunner]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

The usage of alcohol by abusers to entice victims for sexual pleasure/perversion was one of the most common methods used

When I read follow on posts that came after this where only the merits of the brand and other brands are discussed but not one condemnation I wonder if this practice of taking alcohol on campouts by adults still occur.

 

 

You think making fun of beer brands means I condone using alcohol to molest scouts? That's quite a leap. I really didn't think it was necessary for me to criticize something so obviously horrible.

On another forum I strongly criticized scouters who said they would get a beer when coming off trail at Philmont. You're on duty 24/7 until the last scout is picked up at any scouting event. 

[yknot]

30 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

It was quite common to see the adults smoking a pipe or having a beer after dinner, when I was a tenderfoot but that was over 50 years ago.   The word went around in the early '80s that we needed to set the best example we possibly could for the scouts.  So no drinking and if you absolutely have to have a smoke, kindly take a hike over the hill a quarter mile away.  I knew a few SMs who ignored these rules and were quietly relieved from duty as a result. One event I'll never forget happened in '79  I had to forcibly take a large knife away from a very drunk 14 year old, who was staggering around slashing at the air, while shouting challenges to all comers  Seems he had discovered some of the staff's beer stash. The camp director gave them 10 minutes to pack and be off the property.  

So yes it happened.   But less and less as time went by..  

 

 

I think it's still around it's just less overt. Unless you ban travel mugs and plastic water bottles, you have no idea what's in them. I had problems in my own unit when I was Committee Chair and was aware of problems elsewhere in the district, council, and region.  Some of the folks on this forum are exemplary scouters in exemplary units, districts and councils. But it's a big country though and you may not be the norm. One of the issues we've seen with the abuse cases is that there is no real oversight or consequences for lack of oversight by BSA to ensure that people are following the program and policies. It's why two units in the same town or two neighboring councils can be completely different experiences. 

I will also say this is one of the reasons why some units are resistant to having women involved, just to relate it back to the topic. They often won't turn a blind eye, or nose, when they get a whiff of something. 

Edit: I just want to be fair regarding my last comment: I also had to deal with a problem with moms and wine in go cups around the camp fire. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by yknot

[johnsch322]

55 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

You think making fun of beer brands means I condone using alcohol to molest scouts? That's quite a leap. I really didn't think it was necessary for me to criticize something so obviously horrible.

Obviously, you did read exactly what I wrote.  Instead of a condemnation of an ASM who brought alcohol I read light banter about the brand and the ASM needed a better mentor to choose a better brand.

You chose to make the leap.

There is a poster on these forums who is a survivor (not myself but I am, and alcohol was used in my abuse) who read the original post and the subsequent posts.  As a result of reading them he has suffered mental anguish because it relived his memory and caused him concern that the same situations may be occurring.

[qwazse]

@johnsch322, yeah, I recall a lot of anguish related to alcohol dependence/abuse in my family … but that’s balanced with a lot of memories that were positive. That included banter over brands. It’s not about bringing brands to camp, it’s about a shift in cultural norms. Most post-modern nomads are astounded by the indiscriminate preference of drink of the modern working man (and occasional female riveter).

Regarding sexual abuse, my suspicion is that although predators may groom through sharing alcohol, alcohol dependent people (i.e., ones who think it’s an essential to survive camping with youth) are not at elevated risk to become sexual predators. They do pose a risk of kids finding their liquor and perpetuating a cycle of dependence. However, Scouts Germany don’t seem to  have nearly the concerns that we do.

Regardless, there was never any implication that anyone mentor an ASM to bring a preferred brand of alcohol to scout camp. Your friend read into that from the evils of his abuser. That’s on that wretched fiend, not us.

[johnsch322]

14 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@johnsch322, yeah, I recall a lot of anguish related to alcohol dependence/abuse in my family … but that’s balanced with a lot of memories that were positive. That included banter over brands. It’s not about bringing brands to camp, it’s about a shift in cultural norms. Most post-modern nomads are astounded by the indiscriminate preference of drink of the modern working man (and occasional female riveter).

Regarding sexual abuse, my suspicion is that although predators may groom through sharing alcohol, alcohol dependent people (i.e., ones who think it’s an essential to survive camping with youth) are not at elevated risk to become sexual predators. They do pose a risk of kids finding their liquor and perpetuating a cycle of dependence. However, Scouts Germany don’t seem to  have nearly the concerns that we do.

Regardless, there was never any implication that anyone mentor an ASM to bring a preferred brand of alcohol to scout camp. Your friend read into that from the evils of his abuser. That’s on that wretched fiend, not us.

Comparing the long term effects of sexual abuse to anguish over alcohol dependency/abuse and then saying there is a balance with good memories gives me distinct opinion that you have no idea about the long term effects of Child Sexual Abuse. Unless you yourself are a survivor please stop trying to deflect from what you post. What you posted and the subsequent posts were a trigger to at least one survivor and maybe multiple others. 
As far as your suspicions I wouldn’t doubt that those who are abusers have a tendency to have alcoholic and or drug abuse issues themselves. 
As far as for the ASM that brought the alcohol to the BSA campout I wonder what his intentions were?  It was two ASM’s who brought alcohol and pornography plus who knows what else to a campout and raped myself. I hoped someone looked further into his background to see what else he may have done. 

[yknot]

41 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Regarding sexual abuse, my suspicion is that although predators may groom through sharing alcohol, alcohol dependent people (i.e., ones who think it’s an essential to survive camping with youth) are not at elevated risk to become sexual predators. They do pose a risk of kids finding their liquor and perpetuating a cycle of dependence. However, Scouts Germany don’t seem to  have nearly the concerns that we do.

Alcohol use and abuse is intrinsically linked in multiple aspects of child abuse, including sexual. Germans have very unusual attitudes towards alcohol use in general as well as alcohol consumption by minors. I am not sure what you are trying to say by pointing that out as a comparison. 

[SSScout]

One must take the stand where the responsibility sits.

Many moon ago, I organized and led canoe trips for American Youth Hostels.  Our local club would put an ad in the local outdoorsy publication and young adults would come, pay the rental fee, get some instruction, and happily paddle down a stretch of the Monacacy (also known as the Monotony) river. The requirements were prominently displayed in the ad ::: Swimming ability, no alcohol, expectation of getting wet, etc.  Once,  a pair of young males arrived with a large cooler. When I asked to see the contents, they smilingly opened it to reveal three six packs, on ice. I distinctly remember three,. "Oh, we wanted to be sociable".  When I announced they had a choice, either leave the whole cooler behind, or go home, they cursed and chose to go home.... 

One canoe stayed strapped to the shuttle car.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, SSScout said:

One must take the stand where the responsibility sits.

Many moon ago, I organized and led canoe trips for American Youth Hostels.  Our local club would put an ad in the local outdoorsy publication and young adults would come, pay the rental fee, get some instruction, and happily paddle down a stretch of the Monacacy (also known as the Monotony) river. The requirements were prominently displayed in the ad ::: Swimming ability, no alcohol, expectation of getting wet, etc.  Once,  a pair of young males arrived with a large cooler. When I asked to see the contents, they smilingly opened it to reveal three six packs, on ice. I distinctly remember three,. "Oh, we wanted to be sociable".  When I announced they had a choice, either leave the whole cooler behind, or go home, they cursed and chose to go home.... 

One canoe stayed strapped to the shuttle car.

That's a great John Wayne story. If only they always arrived toting a giant cooler filled with evidence lol. 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

… As far as your suspicions I wouldn’t doubt that those who are abusers have a tendency to have alcoholic and or drug abuse issues themselves. …

Would you therefore conclude that those with alcohol dependence (not abuse) should be targeted as potential sexual abusers?

[johnsch322]

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Would you therefore conclude that those with alcohol dependence (not abuse) should be targeted as potential sexual abusers?

What do you mean by targeted?

[Armymutt]

The no alcohol thing threw a wrench into my plans at the last B&G.  At home, we parboil our brats in beer before grilling them.  I had several cans of Bud on the counter ready to go and then realized that we couldn't have alcohol at Scouting events.  

I have a mom that smokes and I had to remind her several times about smoking on the Cuboree.  I can't wait for her daughter to turn 11.  She's nice, but I really hate having to babysit 30-somethings.

[skeptic]

Please move to where ever it may be better.  Just a note to say that California now has a new state law that means all volunteers working with youth have to take a state certified course and have it on file.  They also will need to get fingerprinted as part of the process, and they will not take already on file prints.  So, once they figure out the prints process, I will need to get it done again, even though on file as a teacher.  Already took the online course and have my certificate.  Frankly, it is not a hard course, though a bit long.  I think YP is more detailed, personally.  Am now a madated reporter it appears, or will be once the fingerprint part happens.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

What do you mean by targeted?

This ….

3 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

…
As far as your suspicions I wouldn’t doubt that those who are abusers have a tendency to have alcoholic and or drug abuse issues themselves. 
As far as for the ASM that brought the alcohol to the BSA campout I wonder what his intentions were?  … I hoped someone looked further into his background to see what else he may have done. 

In addition to the collegiate ASM who couldn’t do without a bottle of cheap beer on a camp out, maybe @yknot should have ordered an investigation of the “…  moms and wine in go cups around the camp fire.”  @SSScout should have called the FBI on those boys who “wanted to be sociable.”  @Armymuttshould do some soul searching about the risk he poses to our youth (given the point of this thread being that leading a unit makes demands on behavior at home), and certainly he should put chain-smoking-mom on a National d.q.-ed list.

I do think there is some merit in seeing how much damage someone has done when a scout is found having stolen contraband. I don’t think there is a straightforward leap from substance dependence to child sexual abuse. (If only it were that easy.)

Edited December 31, 2021 by qwazse