Youth Protection, 18-20 year olds, women leaders

[yknot]

1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

This rule and the one where 2 female adult leaders can be in charge of a group of boys but 2 male adult leaders cannot be in charge of a group that includes even 1 girl bug me. Frankly, that's insulting and I'd like to have some strong words with those who came up with it.

The reason for that is statistically men abuse children at rates much higher than women. Women do abuse, but it's usually to please or enable abuse by a controlling male counterpart or an older teen situation. The most horrific abuse scenarios frequently occur in settings where women are less likely to be present -- church, scouting, sports. 

[69RoadRunner]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

The reason for that is statistically men abuse children at rates much higher than women. Women do abuse, but it's usually to please or enable abuse by a controlling male counterpart or an older teen situation. The most horrific abuse scenarios frequently occur in settings where women are less likely to be present -- church, scouting, sports. 

If that's the reasoning, then an adult female should be required for all events, not just when a girl is present.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

If that's the reasoning, then an adult female should be required for all events, not just when a girl is present.

Probably not a bad idea going forward. 

[69RoadRunner]

Just now, yknot said:

Probably not a bad idea going forward. 

It would likely end most troops.

[yknot]

Just now, 69RoadRunner said:

It would likely end most troops.

Why? What's so awful about having women involved? 

[69RoadRunner]

Just now, yknot said:

Why? What's so awful about having women involved? 

I've had several events where I've struggled to get 2 adults, period. The moms don't come camping. There is zero chance I'd get any to do Philmont.

Take a look at summer camps. What percentage of adult leaders there are women? It's very small.

I've asked. I'm not in any way opposed, but I only have 1 that's ever come. Another stayed 1 night when we were desperate.

[yknot]

1 minute ago, 69RoadRunner said:

I've had several events where I've struggled to get 2 adults, period. The moms don't come camping. There is zero chance I'd get any to do Philmont.

Take a look at summer camps. What percentage of adult leaders there are women? It's very small.

I've asked. I'm not in any way opposed, but I only have 1 that's ever come. Another stayed 1 night when we were desperate.

I think that's a failure of BSA and not a reflection of the interest level of women. Before I suffered a disability I tried very much to be a part of the outdoor program at the Troop level and was pretty much shut out. If you have a pack environment that develops women leaders and involves them in crossover, then you'll have female ASMs at Troop. 

[SiouxRanger]

22 minutes ago, yknot said:

Why? What's so awful about having women involved? 

No, not awful.  Just two few willing to be involved. 

And if they don't have a son (and now daughter), involved they are unlikely to just show up "just as part of their civic duty."  Many parents don't show up even when their child is participating.

As an aside, not being from the West, I have noted that women in the West seem to have much more interest in outdoor (backcountry) activities (from my personal observation).

[SiouxRanger]

I'd note that my mom has a bachelor's degree in mathematics from a land grant university and my 2 sisters have 3 degrees between them, and I worked at Philmont when the first two women Rangers were employed there, and then a year later when 5 women were Rangers.  And then on my 4 Philmont treks as an advisor, two of our Rangers were female. And they did a better job than the male Rangers. And one year at Philmont, my responsibility was to train and evaluate everyone on the Ranger Staff but the Chief Ranger and Assistant Chief Rangers. The women set a high standard.

[yknot]

15 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

No, not awful.  Just two few willing to be involved. 

And if they don't have a son (and now daughter), involved they are unlikely to just show up "just as part of their civic duty."  Many parents don't show up even when their child is participating.

As an aside, not being from the West, I have noted that women in the West seem to have much more interest in outdoor (backcountry) activities (from my personal observation).

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing. 

[SiouxRanger]

23 minutes ago, yknot said:

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing. 

Well, with only the recent addition of girls to Scouting, how many moms have "Boy Scouting Experience?" Likely few.  Girl Scouting experience-likely some.

So, I have no in depth of knowledge of mother/Girl Scout camping knowledge.  Maybe mom's just haven't put scouting on the radar.

I would not give up on encouraging moms to go camping. We have had several stay an entire week at summer camp.

As an aside, I have noticed that scouts at camp, weekend camps and summer camp, will look over to where the adults are hanging out from time to time.  I've wondered whether they are looking to be reassured that their parent is present, (or whether the "window is open" to get away with something). I think they were looking for reassurance.

[yknot]

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

Well, with only the recent addition of girls to Scouting, how many moms have "Boy Scouting Experience?" Likely few.  Girl Scouting experience-likely some.

So, I have no in depth of knowledge of mother/Girl Scout camping knowledge.  Maybe mom's just haven't put scouting on the radar.

I would not give up on encouraging moms to go camping. We have had several stay an entire week at summer camp.

As an aside, I have noticed that scouts at camp, weekend camps and summer camp, will look over to where the adults are hanging out from time to time.  I've wondered whether they are looking to be reassured that their parent is present, (or whether the "window is open" to get away with something). I think they were looking for reassurance.

There are millions of moms with scouting experience. They started in cub scouts and then followed their sons to troop. Who do you think camped with them as Webelos? 

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, yknot said:

There are millions of moms with scouting experience. They started in cub scouts and then followed their sons to troop. Who do you think camped with them as Webelos? 

Their husbands?

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 hours ago, yknot said:

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing. 

We are not your average unit.  We try very hard to have women in the program.  After about five years of cultivating this culture, we have only two moms who camp with us (ever).  One is great in the outdoors and really gets the program...when Scouts run to her with problems, she asks the most important question an adult can …"Did you ask your patrol leader?"  The other is not so great in the outdoors.  After about three days at Summer Camp, she left.  Hot meals prepared for you, daily hot showers available, and flush toilets (yes, even in the campsite), were not enough.  She really did not like sleeping in a wall tent in the woods.  Even though she had a fully enclosing bug net, the mosquitos, spiders, snakes, chipmunks, field mice, skunks and raccoons were too much.  Although we never had an encounter with a bear, she was very anxious about it.  She thought we were crazy to want to be out there with all that.  She felt really bad about feeling really bad.  Since we had enough adult coverage, we gave her the option to return.  She was very relieved.  She still does some weekend trips, but will often only be there for one night.

I personally have asked many moms to come with us.  Most just laugh it off.  "That's not for me."  When I delve deeper, in general, those who refuse usually have one of two reasons: 1) there are other younger siblings at home to take care of, or 2) the austerity of camping is daunting to them...they want flush toilets, hot showers, and four walls and a roof over their head.

It took years of having my wife camp with me and the kids before she felt comfortable going with our daughter and her Venturing crew.  But she got there...

Here's an enlightening article...

https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/what-causes-parcopresis-shy-bowel-syndrome

[qwazse]

8 hours ago, yknot said:

Frankly, I don't think many units try very hard at all to involve women in their outdoor programing. 

It’s a big country, and there certainly are troops that expressly say women aren’t welcome. But, I have tried to encourage moms to develop as ASMs or Co-Advisors and it’s just not done in our community. We have a culture where overwhelmingly dads are expected to camp with their children (both male and female). I personally thank every mom who comes camping with their troop because I know from experience what a rare breed they are.

And, from my experience, it’s a generational thing. The now deceased great-grandmas and  great aunts who I’ve talked to spent nights under canvas and took their kids camping. I think the pendulum is swinging back to that. The female execs who I’ve met aren’t mere administrative wonks. They understand the outdoors and working with boys and girls. But as they begin to have children, they’ll need the social supports to continue.

That’s why single young adults are so valuable to  BSA and GS/USA programs. They tend to be gun-ho for the outdoors and can relate to younger youth, and they aren’t usually involved in child or elder care. There are maturity concerns that cannot be overlooked, but if our society weren’t so punitive to everyone besides the few young adults who behave badly they might be manageable.