Youth Protection, 18-20 year olds, women leaders

[qwazse]

The fundamental problem:

• most people experience one-on-one contact as a net good.
• some people experience it as evil.

When you are young (or not so young) and principled, it is hard to accept sacrificing so much goof to avoid so little evil.

[sierracharliescouter]

A rather simple solution/exclusion to this rule could be written, to allow *continued* (not new) one-on-one contact *outside of scouts* between 18-19 year olds and their friends within 2 years age with whom they previously were youth-in-common as scouts. Add to that a permission waiver for the parents of the under 18 youth, specifically naming the 18/19 year olds with whom they can maintain one-on-one contact with *outside of scouts*.

[Armymutt]

I view this thing from the spirit of it.  The intent is to avoid a situation that puts youth at risk.  Since I turned 18 at the start of my senior year, if such a rule existed back then, I would technically be unable to be on my school sports teams, room with my buddy in the Hague when we went for model UN, or meet up with him at the Scout hut to get things ready for a campout.  I'm sure the school would not let me have my own hotel room simply because BSA said so.  These days, it's the same thing.  One of my Tigers came over to play with my daughter while my son stayed to play with her brother.  I made hot chocolate for them and let them go do whatever it is that Kindergarten/1st grade girls do.  My wife came home about 10 minutes later.  I guess technically, I was in violation, but then I'm in violation every school day.  I transport all 4 kids to school and the 1st grader girl or her brother are always the last to exit the vehicle.  For a brief second or two, we are alone in the car.  According to the G2SS, this is a violation.  I guess I should dismount the vehicle so that we are not alone at all, but it's impractical.

[SiouxRanger]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:29 PM, vol_scouter said:

The issue is that if a youth under the circumstances that you outlined were to be abused, the BSA can be liable.  Youth have been abused entirely outside of Scouting with only the initial meeting of the perpetrator and victim occurring in a Scouting setting with the BSA being liable. 

Just seems like madness to me, that "BSA" ( whatever that means, national, local council, and chartering organization, or all of them) would be liable in such circumstances without some direct and CAUSAL connection between scouting and the abuse.

The application of YPT to activities outside of scouting activities makes YPT totally unworkable from a practical standpoint.

For example, how is a chartered organization representative to have any idea whatsoever of the activities of an abusive assistant scoutmaster at soccer matches?

And BSA (etc.) is liable.  That is a VERY HARD CASE TO MAKE.

And as to the John Wayne mentality comment, rigidity and thereby certainty, is convenient and comfortable, but reality is complex and fuzzy..  And the defense that "someone dictated my sense of morals and I adhered to them" has not found legal traction.

[Oldscout448]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:15 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

You're right.  I quit.  Goodbye.

which sadly, is what a lot of really great scouters have actually done.  

It is also worth repeating that among the older scouts a lot of the best backpackers, canoeists, shooters, etc. end up quitting as well.  Because  they view a lot of the GSS rules as overly restrictive at best, completely idiotic at worst.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Oldscout448

[fred8033]

53 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

which sadly, is what a lot of really great scouters have actually done.  

It is also worth repeating that among the older scouts a lot of the best backpackers, canoeists, shooters, etc. end up quitting as well.  Because  they view a lot of the GSS rules as overly restrictive at best, completely idiotic at worst.

I don't buy it.  Scouter's regularily burn out and blame it on other things.  Their personal belief in scouting chains them to the program.  It's almost like they are waiting for a reason to step away.  The first time I saw it in scouting was when OA chapters merged.  Expert and extremely committed scouters couldn't be flexible to work together and each wanted to be the advisor.  So one walked.  ... Reality is the person was burnt out by a big commitment and just needed a trigger to leave.  I'm sure in many ways it was an absolutely relief and also a badge of victimhood to wear and a story to repeat.  

Times change.  We can't expect the program and the rules from long ago.  ... G2SS is not perfect.  Many of the rules are hard to apply in nuanced sitautions.  BUT, the key is learning how to apply and asking for advice and guidance.  Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

My posts were based on two very specific comments.  #1  Infering we can play a G2SS game. Now, I'm a scouter.  Now, I'm not. Then a few hours later, I'm a scouter again.  #2  Similar, the comment that G2SS has rules that you don't really need to follow and that it's an ethical decision each scouter needs to make.  ... We should not teach those examples.

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I don't buy it.  Scouter's regularily burn out and blame it on other things.  Their personal belief in scouting chains them to the program.  It's almost like they are waiting for a reason to step away.  The first time I saw it in scouting was when OA chapters merged.  Expert and extremely committed scouters couldn't be flexible to work together and each wanted to be the advisor.  So one walked.  ... Reality is the person was burnt out by a big commitment and just needed a trigger to leave.  I'm sure in many ways it was an absolutely relief and also a badge of victimhood to wear and a story to repeat.  

Times change.  We can't expect the program and the rules from long ago.  ... G2SS is not perfect.  Many of the rules are hard to apply in nuanced sitautions.  BUT, the key is learning how to apply and asking for advice and guidance.  Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

My posts were based on two very specific comments.  #1  Infering we can play a G2SS game. Now, I'm a scouter.  Now, I'm not. Then a few hours later, I'm a scouter again.  #2  Similar, the comment that G2SS has rules that you don't really need to follow and that it's an ethical decision each scouter needs to make.  ... We should not teach those examples.

 

OK, I unquit...see how easy that is?

Merry Christmas!

And WOW, way to kick them while they are down, brother...

I regularly talk with Scouters who are carrying loads and loads of straw.  Often, since they have dedicated much of their lives to Scouting in one geographical area, they are attached to the local program in meaningful and sentimental ways.  And often, they have witnessed decades of poor decision making and mismanagement which has affected them on a personal level.  It's not like they are "waiting for a reason to step away."  It's just that, finally, one day, there is the straw that breaks the camel's back... But you intimate in your comment that this is all on them...that somehow they are not malleable enough.  No.

To channel Jefferson, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object (protecting BSA rather than Scouts) evinces a design to reduce them Scouters and the program under absolute Despotism Idiocy, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government Idiocy, and to provide new Guards for their future security Scouting.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Scouters Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain Boy Scouts of America is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States to protect the BSA instead of nurturing the Scouts under their wing."

Yeah, I know, Jefferson is rolling in his grave this Christmas morning.🎅

----------------

I have no problem with reaching the point where I am...that my membership in the BSA is under my terms, no longer theirs.  BSA has lost any place of authority, moral or otherwise, and I am under no obligation to listen or follow dictates that do not focus on safeguarding and teaching Scouts.

When the ludicrous extension of YPT to non-Scouting venues was first inserted surreptitiously into the G2SS FAQ, I had discussions with my DE and SE, that this was foolishness, and simply an unenforceable move to CYA.  Further, I told them flat out, if this provision was ever written in, that I would not follow it simply on principle, and, if they wished, they could terminate my membership without remorse.  They both agreed.  That is where we are.

This rule does nothing to protect young people.  Do you honestly think that anyone with designs to engage in sexual activity with a minor is going to obey YPT rules anyway?  This rule simply exists so that BSA can point to it in some way and say "See, we had a rule; They broke it, so we aren't liable."  I seriously doubt, as others do, that BSA bears any culpability in that situation.

I do pick and choose, if you will, what rules I apply and the situations I apply them in.  I use my own judgement, trusting that it is superior to the clowns in Irving.  When a rule exists clearly to protect Scouts, I follow it.  When a rule clearly exists to protect BSA, I am selective.  It is not in my purview to protect the BSA.

Now, I would never publicly announce such, nor put it in writing with my name attached, because, as my SE and I understand, it would tie his hands and he would be forced to evict me, and the Scouting program would lose a valuable member the team.  I also do not pontificate on these things with Scouts.  They are here to focus on other things.

As @SiouxRanger so eloquently put it...

11 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

reality is complex and fuzzy..

Want to protect kids from predators?  Teach them about predators and how to avoid and fight them.  Then, when we, collectively, deal with a predator, do it harshly.  

I, for one, would advocate that child molestation should be a capital offense.  Swift and final punishment, and let the Good Lord impose His final justice. Matthew 18:6 is a good model.  "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."  Drive them out to the middle of the ocean, give them the stone necklace, and push them overboard...and broadcast it.  I see this as neither cruel nor unusual.  Remove the evil from among you.

 

[MattR]

9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

There's a whole other thread on how that's not working. Feedback, scouts in an advisory council, volunteers  etc.

Rules work great when everyone believes in them. In my town it seems red lights are a suggestion for the first second - kind of like the 5 second rule for dropped food. The BSA, like most large organizations, is run by people that honestly believe they are like captains on a ship that make small changes to a rudder to move the entire organization in a new direction. Maybe a better analogy is, rather than a ship, we're just a large gas that is following its own rules of physics, with a leadership council making proclamations upon high. The only way to steer such an organization like a boat is to make prolific use of ropes, stones and boats, as grimly described in Matthew. No, the only way to control a large organization is to understand the directions it is inherently moving anyway.

I used to believe I could change the direction the adults in my troop wanted to go. Of all the great ideas I found about scouting I was sure I could at least take small steps towards scouts taking on more ownership. But reality sucks. We'd talk, agree and have great plans, but half the adults just did what they always did. They kept ensuring there was extra gear when patrols forgot to check. They'd refuse to let the scouts to fail. I could explain what and why or could have created all sorts of rules, including ropes, rocks and boats, and those scouts never had to worry about running out of trash bags. If I had the energy to do it again, I'd have to accept the adults as part of the game.

But back to the 18 year old scouts. Leadership is about figuring out how to motivate the people you have, not the people you want. It's less about rules and more about understanding what drives people. I'm not saying rules aren't needed, just that nearly everyone needs to agree on the rules, or they will be ignored.

Merry Christmas, if that's what motivates you.

[DuctTape]

This discussion reminds me of the history of the Talmud, the written Torah and the Oral (Mishnah).

If the Rabbis of antiquity needed a compendium of interpretations and discussions to apply the Torah to everyday life, then I accept that us mere scouting volunteers will have difficulty following the  GTSS as it manifests in the complexities of everyday life. 

[Armymutt]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Rules work great when everyone believes in them. In my town it seems red lights are a suggestion for the first second - kind of like the 5 second rule for dropped food. The BSA, like most large organizations, is run by people that honestly believe they are like captains on a ship that make small changes to a rudder to move the entire organization in a new direction. Maybe a better analogy is, rather than a ship, we're just a large gas that is following its own rules of physics, with a leadership council making proclamations upon high. The only way to steer such an organization like a boat is to make prolific use of ropes, stones and boats, as grimly described in Matthew. No, the only way to control a large organization is to understand the directions it is inherently moving anyway.

 

How do we tie this in with Citizenship in Society, being the only merit badge with no pamphlet, requires a MBC that has attended special training, and can't be conducted in a large group?  

[fred8033]

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I regularly talk with Scouters who are carrying loads and loads of straw.  Often, since they have dedicated much of their lives to Scouting in one geographical area, they are attached to the local program in meaningful and sentimental ways.  And often, they have witnessed decades of poor decision making and mismanagement which has affected them on a personal level.  It's not like they are "waiting for a reason to step away."  It's just that, finally, one day, there is the straw that breaks the camel's back... But you intimate in your comment that this is all on them...that somehow they are not malleable enough.  No.

I'm saying people leave because they are burnt out.  A trigger is needed.  I doubt G2SS is the trigger.  It might receive a share of blame, but I doubt it's a trigger.

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm saying people leave because they are burnt out.  A trigger is needed.  I doubt G2SS is the trigger.  It might receive a share of blame, but I doubt it's a trigger.

Understood...and I wrestle with this daily.  My wife wishes I would just leave Scouting and start beekeeping and gardening...and start a cat rescue, too (she's a cat-lady‐in-the-making).  Things haven't gotten so bad that I'm ready to go so far as the cat rescue thing yet.  

[RememberSchiff]

Cat herding split to its own thread

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by RememberSchiff

[69RoadRunner]

I suspect most of the people who come up with these rules are not affected by them. I just don't think they give any consideration to the fact that we are VOLUNTEERS. 

I strongly support most of the YPT rules and follow them all. This rule and the one where 2 female adult leaders can be in charge of a group of boys but 2 male adult leaders cannot be in charge of a group that includes even 1 girl bug me. Frankly, that's insulting and I'd like to have some strong words with those who came up with it.

I really feel like no consideration is ever given to those of us who have to abide by these rules from those who create them.

[SiouxRanger]

48 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

I really feel like no consideration is ever given to those of us who have to abide by these rules from those who create them.

Seems to me it is easier to make rules for others than oneself.