fred8033 Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said: ... Litigation is a huge and complex legal process. Outcome uncertain. As we have all seen in National's bankruptcy. ... National seems to have hoped to do a "quick hit" and exit bankruptcy leaving all its legal problems behind with the Settlement Trust to pick, up the pieces. ... And from that, National will have to fashion a national movement based on the principles of Scouting. The settlement trust resolving the mess would probably be the most efficient solution. Instead, we're in for years of proceedings. As for the future, ... if BSA can survive bankruptcy, it will have followers. The legal process can easily make anyone look like a smuck. BSA still has deep legacy that will help. Plus, the ideals still exist. It's a matter of being able to focus. PERVERSELY HUMOROUS COMMENT: This December our family received legal notice and a small amount of money from a bankruptcy trustee. We were surprised. The case started in 1923. Case was reopened in 2015. ... Still though. Wow. ... 98 years ... I've searched court records and ... if I pay money ... the 1923 (and on) court records would be scanned and brought online. ... It is enough money to buy a nice meal for two at a very nice restaurant. ... I really want to know ... what were the total legal fees for a 98 year old case? Edited December 28, 2021 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) This is only tangentially germane and doesn’t contain any legalese, so it may belong elsewhere. My Eagle certificate just turned 46. He still looks MAH-VELOUS, thank you very much! (Nod to Billy C.) A framed piece of paper containing a few words and icons. I know what it means. Simple, though complicated by the mine field I navigated to capture that particular flag. It represents parts of me that went into “creating” it, taken not given. Other Eagles didn’t have those requirements, thank God. A dark price that is not footnoted other than in my heart and mind. That paper is a deeply personal memento. I’m conflicted when I look at it. There is a significance other people can’t understand. Looking at it has always been bittersweet. Amid the blood and sweat, it surely has tear stains which are not visible to the naked eye nor considered by the casual observer. Contrast that with the reams of documents, some stacked and some in binders, that comprise human efforts to explain this case. Note especially the 140+/- pages that are my Proof of Claim, with amendments and exhibits. All told, innumerable words on God knows how many pages representing warring factions’ efforts to get and/or protect money, while abused Scouts languish. On most days, I don’t know what the bulk of those words mean and can’t find my compass. There is no observation tower in sight from which I could get a bearing. If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this? Edited December 28, 2021 by ThenNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 45 minutes ago, ThenNow said: If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this? It would say, "Well, done! Strive to follow the truth you have learned in all your days, and do what you know in your heart to be right. You will carry a burden of pain until you are done with this life. If you seek to bear it alone, it will grow. Find those who lift you up, and help you along your way. You must do this daily. Have faith that, in the life to come, perfect Justice will be done on those who have harmed you." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Scouter Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 58 minutes ago, ThenNow said: This is only tangentially germane and doesn’t contain any legalese, so it may belong elsewhere. My Eagle certificate just turned 46. He still looks MAH-VELOUS, thank you very much! (Nod to Billy C.) A framed piece of paper containing a few words and icons. I know what it means. Simple, though complicated by the mine field I navigated to capture that particular flag. It represents parts of me that went into “creating” it, taken not given. Other Eagles didn’t have those requirements, thank God. A dark price that is not footnoted other than in my heart and mind. That paper is a deeply personal memento. I’m conflicted when I look at it. There is a significance other people can’t understand. Looking at it has always been bittersweet. Amid the blood and sweat, it surely has tear stains which are not visible to the naked eye nor considered by the casual observer. Contrast that with the reams of documents, some stacked and some in binders, that comprise human efforts to explain this case. Note especially the 140+/- pages that are my Proof of Claim, with amendments and exhibits. All told, innumerable words on God knows how many pages representing warring factions’ efforts to get and/or protect money, while abused Scouts languish. On most days, I don’t know what the bulk of those words mean and can’t find my compass. There is no observation tower in sight from which I could get a bearing. If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this? I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out. No longer proud to display it. Then during bankruptcy my LC sold a camp I put a lot of effort in to and loved very much. I had a friend's of scouting framed picture on the wall, to the trash it went. I still have good memories of scouting as a scout and leader but do not feel support for National or LC. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Just now, 1980Scouter said: I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out. No longer proud to display it. Then during bankruptcy my LC sold a camp I put a lot of effort in to and loved very much. I had a friend's of scouting framed picture on the wall, to the trash it went. I still have good memories of scouting as a scout and leader but do not feel support for National or LC. Remember, these were people who had these attitudes, made these decisions, and took these actions. They are hidden from us, mostly, and most will never face consequences from us for what they did. And people like them populate every institution we create: families, churches, schools, governments... From one Eagle Scout to another, please display your certificate and medal proudly. They are a mark of your achievement and dedication to an ideal, and who you should strive to be. If it helps, make a color copy of it and mark through "Boy Scouts of America" as a personal act of defiance and judgment. Display that! Illegitimi non carborundum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said: I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out. No longer proud to display it. Yeah. I understand. Mine is on my desk not the wall at this point. Was in my office for many years. I pulled it out in the spring of 2020 to scan and further validate my Scouting credentials for the PoC. It’s oddly grounding, in the midst of the whirlwind. It reminds or, better, assures me what happened really happened. The good, the bad and the ugly. (Nod to Sir Eastwood.) Edited December 28, 2021 by ThenNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted December 28, 2021 Author Share Posted December 28, 2021 Voting is hours away from closing out. (If you are a voting entity ... get your votes in!). So, there is an updated schedule likely to be approved very soon. I found it interesting that in this case, the Debtors (BSA) and the TCC agreed to this update but the Coalition wasn't listed. 52ca7b40-5212-4b83-ba83-bde81e2d737e_7973.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com) Dec 29 Deadline to serve discovery on voting, settlements Jan 4 Preliminary voting report Jan 5 Rebuttal expert reports due Jan 7 Deadline to serve responses/objections to voting/settlement discovery Jan 14 Document production regarding voting/settlement due Jan 17 Final voting report deadline Jan 28 Deposition of expert witness & fact witnesses due Jan 31 Deadline to identify trial witnesses Feb 4 Plan objection deadline Feb 10 Deadline to exchange depositions designations and file motions Feb 14 Confirmation brief/plan reply deadline Feb 15 Deadline to exchange deposition couter-designations Feb 17 Deadline to submit joint pretial order, witness/exhibit lists, options to motions, etc Feb 18 Final pretrial conference Feb 22 Confirmation hearing Note that in other cases, there have been big changes between the preliminary voting report & final report. There shouldn't be ... but this was mentioned in court that it has been seen in the past. I really think January 4 is the key date here. Option 1 - Claimants massively approve this deal (95%+ yes votes). Based on what I have seen from other cases, I would expect this to go forward. Yes, there will be a confirmation battle. BSA, LCs, COs and insurance may kick in a few hundred million more combined to try to get TCC and remaining lawfirms on board. There may be tweaks but overall, I think the judge will try and make this plan work. Purdue is a big question, but that is a different circuit and not yet through all appeals so she may ignore it for now. Option 2 - Claimants approve, but not overwhelmingly (66% - 90%). The BSA, FCR, UMC/LDS, Coalition and insurance companies will fight hard to get the plan confirmed. TCC, Zalkin, Catholic Church and remaining insurance fights against the plan. Months of fighting & negotiations. Chaos. Option 3 - Claimants reject the plan (<66%). The Coalition will blame TCC/Kosnoff's email. Perhaps a bit of fighting, but BSA will admit defeat. I hope in all options, the judge keeps these hearings going. There are a TON of questions that must be answered and ruled on by the judge. Before a new plan takes shape (assuming Option 2/3) she needs to make rulings to help frame the plan (and future voting). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2Eagle Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 38 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: Voting is hours away from closing out. (If you are a voting entity ... get your votes in!). So, there is an updated schedule likely to be approved very soon. I found it interesting that in this case, the Debtors (BSA) and the TCC agreed to this update but the Coalition wasn't listed. 52ca7b40-5212-4b83-ba83-bde81e2d737e_7973.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com) Dec 29 Deadline to serve discovery on voting, settlements Jan 4 Preliminary voting report Jan 5 Rebuttal expert reports due Jan 7 Deadline to serve responses/objections to voting/settlement discovery Jan 14 Document production regarding voting/settlement due Jan 17 Final voting report deadline Jan 28 Deposition of expert witness & fact witnesses due Jan 31 Deadline to identify trial witnesses Feb 4 Plan objection deadline Feb 10 Deadline to exchange depositions designations and file motions Feb 14 Confirmation brief/plan reply deadline Feb 15 Deadline to exchange deposition couter-designations Feb 17 Deadline to submit joint pretial order, witness/exhibit lists, options to motions, etc Feb 18 Final pretrial conference Feb 22 Confirmation hearing Note that in other cases, there have been big changes between the preliminary voting report & final report. There shouldn't be ... but this was mentioned in court that it has been seen in the past. I really think January 4 is the key date here. Option 1 - Claimants massively approve this deal (95%+ yes votes). Based on what I have seen from other cases, I would expect this to go forward. Yes, there will be a confirmation battle. BSA, LCs, COs and insurance may kick in a few hundred million more combined to try to get TCC and remaining lawfirms on board. There may be tweaks but overall, I think the judge will try and make this plan work. Purdue is a big question, but that is a different circuit and not yet through all appeals so she may ignore it for now. Option 2 - Claimants approve, but not overwhelmingly (66% - 90%). The BSA, FCR, UMC/LDS, Coalition and insurance companies will fight hard to get the plan confirmed. TCC, Zalkin, Catholic Church and remaining insurance fights against the plan. Months of fighting & negotiations. Chaos. Option 3 - Claimants reject the plan (<66%). The Coalition will blame TCC/Kosnoff's email. Perhaps a bit of fighting, but BSA will admit defeat. I hope in all options, the judge keeps these hearings going. There are a TON of questions that must be answered and ruled on by the judge. Before a new plan takes shape (assuming Option 2/3) she needs to make rulings to help frame the plan (and future voting). I would say that if the current plan gets rejected than the threshold question really needs to be whether she needs to follow Purdue regarding non debtors. I don't know, maybe someone else does, whether there is actually a binding precedent in this circuit that explicitly is in conflict with Purdue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 hour ago, T2Eagle said: I would say that if the current plan gets rejected than the threshold question really needs to be whether she needs to follow Purdue regarding non debtors. I don't know, maybe someone else does, whether there is actually a binding precedent in this circuit that explicitly is in conflict with Purdue. As I heard her, it was pretty clear by implication and tone of voice, she read the opinion doesn’t feel that way at present. Her responses were clipped and emphatic, effectively stating that Circuit Court is not this Circuit Court. JLSS has a lot on her plate, a ton to read, cats, raccoons and honey badgers to wrangle and an awful lot to think about between here and there (wherever that ends up being). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Mean while, I observed that the hype for this is still going strong on TV, along with similar campaigns to milk the public with temptation to claim "stuff" for possibly large money. Watching lame holiday movies and such all afternoon and evening on Christmas, the channels were flooded with comeons for not just BSA Abuse, but the Catholic Church of course, and generic ones not specific to one group. On top of that were the long running other big suits for chemicals, asbestos, various medications, baby powder, and any "possible" damages related to an accident of some sort. DO NOT try to tell me that the legal system is not messed up. I somehow do not think that all these lawyer groups are paying these big bucks just out of the concern for others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttsy Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 48 minutes ago, ThenNow said: s I heard her, it was pretty clear by implication and tone of voice, she read the opinion doesn’t feel that way at present. Her responses were clipped and emphatic, effectively stating that Circuit Court is not this Circuit Court. Interesting. My take was different. She referenced her own Opinion in Millenium which became the law of the 3rd Circuit when it was affirmed. Do you recall her comment that her decision was based on Constitutional Due Process grounds. Judge McMahon’s Opinion was based on the bankruptcy statute. She deliberately declined to reach the Constitutional question. Silverstein’s remark sounded like she was distinguishing her Opinion from the Purdue opinion, meaning Millenium is not controlling authority in the 3rd Circuit. My sense is that she is going to follow Purdue/Sackler because it is legally correct, it is powerful; it is persuasive. She may also be sick and tired of all these Ch 11’s finagling their way in to Wilmington for the sole purpose of availing themselves of that jurisdiction where third party releases are handed out like candy. Their use was SUPPOSED to be rare. This could relieve congestion in her court and put restructuring specialists like Lauria out of business along with the mass tort lawyers’ gravy train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted December 28, 2021 Author Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Muttsy said: Interesting. My take was different. She referenced her own Opinion in Millenium which became the law of the 3rd Circuit when it was affirmed. Do you recall her comment that her decision was based on Constitutional Due Process grounds. Judge McMahon’s Opinion was based on the bankruptcy statute. She deliberately declined to reach the Constitutional question. Silverstein’s remark sounded like she was distinguishing her Opinion from the Purdue opinion, meaning Millenium is not controlling authority in the 3rd Circuit. My sense is that she is going to follow Purdue/Sackler because it is legally correct, it is powerful; it is persuasive. She may also be sick and tired of all these Ch 11’s finagling their way in to Wilmington for the sole purpose of availing themselves of that jurisdiction where third party releases are handed out like candy. Their use was SUPPOSED to be rare. This could relieve congestion in her court and put restructuring specialists like Lauria out of business along with the mass tort lawyers’ gravy train. I’m not a lawyer but my read based on articles and some good analysis from various legal feeds. Even though it is a different circuit, if McMahon is correct in terms of Bankruptcy law, it would seem to be applicable. Don’t forget another judge (Novak 4th circuit) is questioning non debtor releases in district courts. We may be seeing district courts across the board enforce bankruptcy courts to stay in their lane. Silverstein really wants to know where the claimants are in terms of this plan. If this plan sees >95% yes, then I expect she will want to find a way forward. She will need to find a legal argument to include LCs and COs. I could imagine her excluding COs while still keeping in LCs. If the vote goes south, the following must be decided: 1) Can non debtor releases be included in the plan 2) Are LCs separate from National or should their assets merge based on legal arrangements 3) Is the JP Morgan secured debt legitimate or are high adventure bases not secured. If the debt is questionable then JP Morgan may need to take a hit. 4) Depending on above, how should votes be counted be LC, CO, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Just wondering if anyone believes that the vote will overwhelmingly pass.... Other than the $3500 issue, I have not heard much to indicate any forward momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said: Just wondering if anyone believes that the vote will overwhelmingly pass.... Other than the $3500 issue, I have not heard much to indicate any forward momentum. I do not believe it will overwhelmingly pass and would not be surprised if it gets less than a 50% yes vote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted December 28, 2021 Author Share Posted December 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said: Just wondering if anyone believes that the vote will overwhelmingly pass.... Other than the $3500 issue, I have not heard much to indicate any forward momentum. No, but there was this big vote dump. All of these 100+ voted yes.https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/a2bf89a1-0b09-4300-8a8b-78a14ef26e63_7988.pdf If this is any indication of master ballots, you might see thousands of yes votes pour in from these law firms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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