Saws, knives, and training to prevent unkind cuts

[Mrjeff]

A long time ago, on a camp out I overheard one of the guys say, "when Mr Jeff is around we use our knives correctly, when he's not we use them wrongly", I just had to laugh!

[5thGenTexan]

17 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

A long time ago, on a camp out I overheard one of the guys say, "when Mr Jeff is around we use our knives correctly, when he's not we use them wrongly", I just had to laugh!

Funny you mention that...  I  use my knife wrongly when Scouts aren't around.  🤪😆

[qwazse]

10 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Funny you mention that...  I  use my knife wrongly when Scouts aren't around.  🤪😆

@5thGenTexan, careful there. When the scouts use them wrongly when we aren’t around, at least they are with their buddies who know first aid. When we old farts cut corners (or do something worthy of having a totin’ chip corner cut), we’re usually by our own stupid selves.

Edited December 17, 2021 by qwazse

[Mrjeff]

Hmmmmmmm......🤣🤣😂😅

[Mrjeff]

I have a friend who is also a life long scouter, and his other job is in construction.  He accidentally cut of part of his thumb with a circular saw.   Sooooooooooo..........somehow his guys got ahold of his toting (sp ck) chip..maybe his wife was involved....and cut out a jagged circle right in the middle of it😉

[InquisitiveScouter]

16 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I have a friend who is also a life long scouter, and his other job is in construction.  He accidentally cut of part of his thumb with a circular saw.   Sooooooooooo..........somehow his guys got ahold of his toting (sp ck) chip..maybe his wife was involved....and cut out a jagged circle right in the middle of it😉

Will that fit over the remainder of his thumb??

Edited December 18, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[Oldscout448]

Having  spent over four decades in woodshops I've seen worse.    But pictures like this still make me cringe, just imagining what's underneath.  

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Having  spent over four decades in woodshops I've seen worse.    But pictures like this still make me cringe, just imagining what's underneath.  

A surgeon once re-attached two parts of my hand because I used a saw unsafely. 

Because of that experience, not taking wood-shop class wasn’t an option for my sons. I was counting on the Oldscout448’s to teach my sons how to use shop power tools safely.

I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe. When a scout runs the teeth of a saw across his knuckles, it leaves a scar for life. You’re not only afraid of the wrong tools; your fear is dangerous because it makes you spend too little time teaching the proper safe use of all woods tools.

Accidents will always happen, but they occur a lot less after proper training.

Barry

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

A surgeon once re-attached two parts of my hand because I used a saw unsafely. 

Because of that experience, not taking wood-shop class wasn’t an option for my sons. I was counting on the Oldscout448’s to teach my sons how to use shop power tools safely.

I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe. When a scout runs the teeth of a saw across his knuckles, it leaves a scar for life. You’re not only afraid of the wrong tools; your fear is dangerous because it makes you spend too little time teaching the proper safe use of all woods tools.

Accidents will always happen, but they occur a lot less after proper training.

Barry

 

 

After proper training, practice to proficiency (I don't see this a lot..."one and done" is a really bad idea here), group discipline to maintain the standards, and the behavioral example of adults and older Scouts in proper tool usage.

One good practice is to have Scouts look at the pictures in the Scout Handbook and describe what the sawyer is wearing for safety (correct) and the pictured saw technique (which is iffy...hard to tell if the sawyer has the end off the ground or resting on the ground...will potentially bind the saw...page 382 of my early 13th edition)

And there are so many "county options" out there it is pitiful...Totin Chip card carrying "requirements", cutting TC corners, insistence on ax yards on all camping trips, "blood circle" (a detestable term), "Thank You" requirements when not really needed, etc, etc

And here's a sweet piece of cringy footage https://www.facebook.com/Rovering4Life/videos/569755051050258/ 

And, as candidate for future Chief Scout of the USA, I'd lobby to put loppers in the woods tools section as the preferred tool for most firewood prep.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[RememberSchiff]

In teaching kids to use tools safely, I find many have an expectation that both easy and QUICK work will result.  I cringe at speed competitions where tools are involved particularly at the beginner level. We can teach a beginner to use tools SAFELY,  IMO QUICK requires experience and may never come by choice.

After my 7th grade wood shop teacher taught us how to properly use handsaws, he held a sawing competition. I want each of you to cut your board to these lengths and these angle cuts... And we were off. The first one done yelled I win, so the rest of us stopped sawing. Our instructor yelled at us, I told each to you to cut your board. Get back to work!

When the last student was done sawing, our instructor measured the lengths, the square and angle of the cuts.  He explained he never said he wanted the cuts done quickly, rather he expected them done to spec - we are craftsmen. One of the slowest was closest to those specs, though not perfect. His point,  take time to think the cut and PRACTICE.  Advice I would hear again later at summer camp in a whittling class.

My $0.02,

[InquisitiveScouter]

BTW,

Here's an awesome Forestry Service resource for axes...mainly for use by adults who want deep knowledge...

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/php/library_card.php?p_num=1823 2812P

[MattR]

55 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

In teaching kids to use tools safely, I find many have an expectation that both easy and QUICK work will result.  I cringe at speed competitions where tools are involved particularly at the beginner level. We can teach a beginner to use tools SAFELY,  IMO QUICK requires experience and may never come by choice.

After my 7th grade wood shop teacher taught us how to properly use handsaws, he held a sawing competition. I want each of you to cut your board to these lengths and these angle cuts... And we were off. The first one done yelled I win, so the rest of us stopped sawing. Our instructor yelled at us, I told each to you to cut your board. Get back to work!

When the last student was done sawing, our instructor measured the lengths, the square and angle of the cuts.  He explained he never said he wanted the cuts done quickly, rather he expected them done to spec - we are craftsmen. One of the slowest was closest to those specs, though not perfect. His point,  take time to think the cut and PRACTICE.  Advice I would hear again later at summer camp in a whittling class.

My $0.02,

Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

9 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe.

Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

[Eagledad]

Loppers is probably my most used yard tool. Perfect for car camping. But, many of the saw injuries we tended to occur on back packing treks where minimal equipment weight is priority. Even hatchets are considered to Harvey, so the small backpacking saw is the tool of choice. Sadly, light backpacking saws are particularly difficult to use safely without much practice.

Over the years we’ve come to depend on safety equipment to reduce accidents and have found one pair of heavy garden gloves are our equipment of choice for back woods treks. First off, they protect hands from the wildy saw. But they are also wonderful around the fire for moving hot pots, burning pieces of wood that shifted to close to the edge of the ring, and readjusting hot fire ring rocks. In fact, the more one uses them, the more uses they found for many applications. 
 

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter]

26 minutes ago, MattR said:

Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

Well worth the investment for your woods tools box.

 

https://www.magidglove.com/ellwood-safetyr-4-carbon-steel-toe-guards-702-tg?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzfuNBhCGARIsAD1nu-9EYQhWJytibMWSJT6oIQ3be4SXTMINkJYYZNhEr8IyHkljK_tBRoAaAhhZEALw_wcB

[JoeBob]

I'm pleased to observe that 'Paul Bunyan' has returned.

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/ScoutsBSA/PaulBunyan.asp

In the mid sixties this was a hands on course offered over a few days at Scout Camp.  I learned the skills from a great teacher, and stepped up to fill the void when he left.  Our award had a button hole in the end of the handle and dangled on your right pocket under the flap.