When did it not work?

[johndaigler]

B:)b White,

 

You're good at setting up situations so that you already know the answer to the question. That's not a complaint, nor a criticism - though you've probably read enough posts from me to know that it's not a 100% compliment either. I don't think anyone is going to come up with the contra-answer to your riddle, but your riddle is limited in scope - and I would suggest, doesn't address the issue with which most of us struggle.

 

Here's my thoughts, though like others I probably need to get sent to the "start your own thread" showers . . .

 

New leaders (get) volunteer(ed).

It probably takes weeks, if not months, to get trained; and, we know, too many of us don't ever get enough training.

We know that training isn't a cure-all or even consistently "Quality", itself.

We also know that most of us are walking into less than perfect programs. I suggest the numbers of trained leaders and Quality units as evidence. Sorry, I can't paint it more clearly, but it seems true to me.

 

The program works, I think you make the point well, and it's a great point, but many of us struggle to deliver that program in an imperfect environment with imperfect skills.

 

A Unit's leaders don't follow program (to some varying extent), the new leader walks in, and . . .

 

The Program works, but if the Unit doesn't - what good does knowing that if I do it right, nothing bad will ever happen. Now, I suppose the answer is to get everybody on board with the Program. But, the concerns we read about here, time and again, are often the results of more experienced Leaders not following program and "how do the posters make a bad situation, better?". In a structure where everyone is a volunteer and most are only partially informed, the issues become People issues. Training and Program don't offer simple answers to these concerns.

 

My point is, it's not enough that following the program keeps you on the right path. What the program is, is fine, but what about what the program isn't? It would help resolve many of the issues on these threads if the training and the program also helped Scouters steer back onto the right path and take your Unit/District/Council along for the ride.

 

One final example: My Pack doesn't start working toward Bobcat until the fall of the Wolf year. We award Bobcats in November, and Wolves at the BnG in Feb. Couldn't tell ya where these traditions come from, but we all know they're not Program-friendly (nor 2nd grader friendly!). Got anything in the Program or the training to help me? Sure, I can find the right answers in the resources, and I can share that info --- but these people have all been Cub Leaders for years, the district hasn't helped them grow toward program, they're neighbors, they're friends, their kids play with my sons, yada, yada, yada. The ramifications of doing the right thing are neither simple, nor short-term.

 

Changing history isn't for the faint-hearted (sp?), so telling me the program works, if I follow it, kinda irks me. (Which, I know, I should be above, but I'm still learning.) At the very least, it doesn't help me with the real issues --- People.

 

jd

[Eamonn]

I know that I'm starting to sound like Bill Clinton?? But the word program is getting to me.

The delivery of the program is in the hands of individual leaders. Each of us brings something too the table.We each have different skills, which does help offer the youth that we serve different things to do or activities.

We may share the same "Ballpark" Values,but we might list them is a different order or prioritize them differently.

We work with or for the youth that join. The time when I think we do the best work is when we deal with the Scout or Crew member, one on one. We talk and guide and support him or her as an individual. We cater for his or her needs, using the talents, skills, values, and resources that we have and what the organization or other organizations have to meet these needs. These wants and needs vary from youth to youth.His or her goals become our goals and this program thing kicks in as we work for this young person.

Along the way there are lots of different things happening. People doing all sorts of things to help provide resources that will meet this end. Each different department or body, call it what you will is doing what they see as the program. There are for most of these groups material that comes from the BSA. Is all of this perfect? I don't know I haven't read or used all of it. I didn't find the set of leaflets on Rural Scouting to be a big help. I happen to think that starting a unit with only five youth members is not such a great idea. I don't like that Scouts can be Scouts and Crew members and I'm amazed that a pair of Venturing socks cost over $13.00. Is this organization or is this program?

I do like the methods of Scouting. I like where we are supposed to be heading. I agree with the Scout Law and Oath. I think this is program.

The material that comes from the BSA is mostly very good. I think that Cub Scout training does need a good tweak. Does this make me anti-program?

Maybe Bill Clinton could define program. I'm having a hard time.

Is the program only as good as what is delivered to each Scout? If so who is to judge if it worked or not?

We do have a few twits running lose, we can train them and they will still remain twits. But there are youth members that think the world of these twits. Does that just make them loved twits or is what they are doing still the program - At least in the eyes of these youth?

I see one big problem that we face is that when we see that it is not working, we at the District and Council level have a really hard time trying to fix it. It is OK if the people who are delivering something that isn't working want to try and fix it. However if they don't want too, there is not very many tools in our tool box to make it work.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori]

Is the point of this thread to validate the BSA program? Some posters have given excellent answers & have been told "doesn't apply".

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Its Me]

For three years I audited industrial maintenance and operational programs, (OSHA 1910.119 PSM) to be exact. The 24 separate facilities we covered had programs for every little operational upset as well as full scale failure and emergency procedures. On paper nearly all the programs were terrific. As long as this guy did this and that guy was certified for that and another guy signed off on the whole thing everything was perfect. On paper how could it fail?

 

But it did fail. Not often but it did. The reason it did is because faced with operating the facility or waiting for a signature the decision would be to run the facility.

 

BSA is the same way. As long as every position is filled with trained adults who have the time and commitment to do the job it will run smooth. But often the program cant be applied exactly as it is written. And although the program is sound it just cant be implemented in all aspects. Faced with similar decision the operators will run with what they have, hoping that they have covered the most important parts to keep the system safe and functional.

 

So Bob your plea for finding where the program has not worked is unrealistic, or idealistic. On paper sure it will work, it always does. In practice we read every day on this Form about the difficulties in applying the programs.

 

Thus no matter how good the program is on paper, if it can't be applied in the manner in which it was designed is it still a good program?

 

 

[Bob White]

Sorry Its Me but your argument falls apart immediately. I am not asking posters about how the program holds up in the book. I am asking for real life situations when the program was followed and it didn't work. As you see by the reply's so far, no one can think of a time when that happened.

 

This is not a question about theory or philosophy. This is about application. So your "works on paper" argument is not relevant to this thread.

 

John Daigler,

 

Following the program is following the program whether you have been a leader for a month, a year or ten years.

 

AdrianVS

The program of the past fit the circumstances of the past. The scouting program today evolved in its methods to fit todays circumstances.

 

Notice that even with the attempts of philosophical side-stepping by a few posters, no one who is actually involved in unit leadership has been able to site a single instance where using the methods of scouting did not work.

 

Why is it so hard for some to approach the possible conclusion that the reason may be that it really does work?

 

BW

 

 

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

Pack, I believe it was in the book, "MIG Pilot" where the pilot, who flew into Japan with a new soviet fighter and defected stated that the USA has more closely reached the worker's utopia than Mother Russia ever did.

 

We hover around 5% unemployment, and how many of them don't want to work? We have Township Aid, State Public Aid, USDA Food Stamps, County Housing Authorities, Medicaid, Private Charities, Food Pantries in every town, Social Security Disability, and on and on and on.

 

The majority of what we call poor in the USA would be considered rich in most of the rest of the world.

[evmori]

Bob,

Who ever questioned whether the program works or not? I would think since the BSA has been around since 1910 the program works!

 

Still don't see the point of this thread?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagledad]

>>Notice that even with the attempts of philosophical side-stepping by a few posters, no one who is actually involved in unit leadership has been able to site a single instance where using the methods of scouting did not work.

[Its Me]

Bob define "works".

 

Is it that all kids who entry scouting stay in until reaching Eagle?

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[Bob White]

Its Me

First, you are off the topic, since you obviously have nothing to contribute on this subject please feel free to start a thread on your side issue.

 

Second, Youe asumption is untrue and a blatant falsehood.

 

Last, I challange you to come up with a single post where I even suggest such a thing.

 

If you cannot tell the truth please choose a different target.

[evmori]

Bob,

Answer the question! It's Me isn't off topic. The poster is just trying to get a handle on what you are looking for since no one can figure it out!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I agree with everything Eamonn posted except for one thing. The definition of "the program". I think he said it though perhaps unintentionally. The scouting program is the interaction of the Scouting methods for the goal of achieving the aims and mission.

 

If you use the methods of scouting the program works. Will there be annoyances? Sure, we deal with a variety of people, there will always be annoyances. But if each person did the job the BSA asked them to do in the methods they teach we would reach our goals in every unit.

 

But Eamonn points out the biggest problem we face. When a unit is in trouble, it always boils down to someone not following the methods. No matter how much energy or resources anyone puts into solving the problem, if the individual does not agree to change to the BSA methods the problem cannot be solved.

 

Look at the vast majority of posts on this board. Most are about problems resulting from not following the BSA methods or procedures. Never has anyone shown "I did it the way the BSA said to do it and it didn't work". Why is the notion that the program works greeted with such distain by some posters on a continual basis?

 

I believe it is because in order to admit the program works some leaders would have to admit that what they have been doing doesn't. They would rather lose boys and keep their control over "their" scout unit, then relinguish that grip and deliver scouting.

 

I am not talking about new leaders still learning who haven't figured out the methods yet. I am talking about leaders who refuse to learn or apply the methods and procedures of scouting.

 

If you know what the methods are, and no one can dispute that they work, then you in heavens name doesn't everyone follow them?

 

Can anyone shed some light on that?

 

 

 

 

 

[PNScouter]

Bob,

 

I think I got it. How about asking a specific question. Lets say new scout patrol. Who here has used the new scout patrol method and it did not work? Be careful because BW will come down on you if you did not apply the method correctly.

 

BTW I do not have a case where using the BSA method did not work.

[PNScouter]

I think I got it. How about asking a specific question. Lets say new scout patrol. Who here has used the new scout patrol method and it did not work? Be careful because BW will come down on you if you did not apply the method correctly.

 

BTW I do not have a case where using the BSA method did not work.

[Bob White]

PNS think about it a moment. Calling it a New Scout Patrol doesn't mean you followed the program.

 

Did you limit the patrol size to the correct number

 

Did it have a Troop Guide that joined that patrol and worked in tantem with a temporary PL

 

Did each scout get to be PL for a month and attend a PLC

 

Did the NSP program have an assigned ASM that had a separate planned program based on the First Class emphasis

 

Did the scouts who attended have the opportunity to learn practice and apply all the requirements for Scout to First Class within the first 14 months.

 

If you did those things you used the scouting program I don't care if you call it a giraffe.

 

Has anyone done those steps and not had success? Not that anyone has ever mentioned. But we have had LOTS of posters, even some with enough experience to know better, who didn't follow it and yet complain that scouts quit, or have poor attendance, or don't want to participate, yet they never change. Instead they blame the kids and the parents.

 

You can post as many excuses as you wish. No one has yet to prove that the BSA methods do not work, and yet still leaders choose not to use them. WHY?