BULLYING! Poor Scouting Values in adults

[mzzgwenf]

I present this discussion with tears in my eyes as I accept the fate of my future with my beloved Cub Scouts.  I am a victim of abuse from a parent who has had such a strong hold on our pack that she has scared everyone into accepting her behavior or we all, adults and scouts, will suffer her wrath.  I have taken this situation to the highest level I can go to which is the direct attention of Mr. Randall Stephenson, President of the BSA, and still I receive no support.  I have read several discussions on this forum that address the bad behavior of adult parents in scouting environments but I have not seen anything that deals with the accountability process.  The situation in question is too extensive to discuss here, but bottom line, I have been forced away from my role as proud Cubmaster to avoid possible violence.  Now, I know all the rules of scouting behavior but I am now aware that those rules only apply to those who are not as aggressvie as the offenders.  Plainly speaking folks, we have a severe adult bullying problem in the BSA, especially in the Cub Scouts.  Parents are getting out of control and the upper level leadership is looking the other way because they don't want to get involved.  At the Council and National levels, THEY GET PAID TO GET INVOLVED!  We as volunteers tolerate that mess for free and we need protection just as much as the children do.  Those tears I mentioned before are out of frustration that I believed in the scouting system.  I believed in the zero tolerance.  I believed that there is an expectancy of intervention when a formal complaint is rendered, especially by a loyal volunteer.  It was all the total opposite.  The parent threatened me verbally and nothing was done.  I am 66 years old and I am way too old to be fighting a very angry 30-something woman who outweighs me physically.  I trusted my leadership.  I trusted my council.  Overall, I trusted the BSA.  That Youth Protection system is severely flawed.  There is no way this situation should have gotten to the extreme that it did and there are big losses across the board.  Our very small but progressive pack has lost a seasoned (almost 30 years experience), very loyal Cubmaster.  In my proudest moments, I can be seen at any given time in a scouting environment wearing the yellow shirt and blue pants, a dying breed in the Cub Scouts.  I could be relied upon to be available and participate in unit activities despite the distance I had to travel for meetings and events.  That was never a problem or concern for me.  Now, I must sit at home on meeting nights and worry about my scouts because now they are exposed to a system of corruption that should not be a part of an innocent scouting envrironment.  This parent has poisoned our pack so badly that there is no positivity there and everyone is afraid to speak and share concerns.  As for me, I did not want to be driven to the point where I needed to have some type of weapon close by to deal with this person when she goes on her direct verbal attacks against me.  The end result was I quit the program, very reluctantly.  I was not willing to subject myself to an environment that is so hostile that everyone looks afraid.  We were a fun pack.  I trust that my Cubs are doing ok and that this parent has not caused so much damage that the pack may evaporate.  I am not there but I miss it.  I miss being in uniform.  I miss doing something positive each night we have a meeting.  I miss doing things that make the scouts remember each and every night.  I love my scouts.  I am committed to the core.  But the program has abandoned me in favor of a bully.  I am a seamstress and I made this bucket hat and mask (photo below) set that I wear to every activity we did as a pack to include weekly meetings.  I am asking all who read this to share your opinions and input.  The question I want to present is:  Should there be an identical, enforcable, accountability system in place for adults who participate in scouting at any level?  Currently, this system only applies to the scouts and you know what happens to them if they are accused of bullying. Actually, nothing happens to them...but that's another subject.
 

Edited December 2, 2021 by MattR
I have no idea what that "image" was, so I removed it

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @mzzgwenf.

I removed the image you posted as it wasn't an image and wouldn't display. If you would like to upload an image then copy it to your computer first and then upload it.

 

2 hours ago, mzzgwenf said:

Should there be an identical, enforcable, accountability system in place for adults who participate in scouting at any level? 

I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're trying to say. It seems that you were dealing with a parent that you felt was threatening you. If so, call the police. If it really was just verbal attacks then talk to some other adults and see what they think. If this other person is making it impossible for you to volunteer then bring it up with the pack committee. They do have the authority to remove parents that cause problems. But, it sounds like you already stepped down?

[SiouxRanger]

@mzzgwenef--

Welcome to the forum.

Let the moderators help you get your message out.

[MikeS72]

Sounds like this may be something that happened quite some time ago, as Randall Stephenson has not been President of BSA since 2018.

Without details, it is impossible to know whether this is something that rises to the level that would get a response from either your District, Council, or ultimately National.  They are not likely to step in and get involved if it looks like internal Pack squabbles.  If indeed you have been legitimately threatened, I would listen to MattR and let the police handle it.

[Eagle1993]

@MattR is correct, if this is to the point you believe you may need a weapon, you should be talking with the police.

In terms of BSA, the first person I would go to is your charter organization rep.  They are ultimately responsible for your unit and should be aware of any concerns.  They decide who the adult leaders are in all cases ... so they decide the Committee Chair.  If their is a parent/family causing trouble, there is no reason they must remain in your pack.  @David CO is a COR and has mentioned multiple times that their unit does not approve applications for every youth ... they will reject youth for their pack. 

[mzzgwenf]

I thank all of you for your input.  It was very helpful.  Admittedly, I did not share the whole story because it was too lengthy to go into detail.  Please just know that I have indeed exercised all levels of intervention...Committee Chair, DE, and, of course, National.  I am a non-violent person and I live a high state of morality that I pass on to my scouts.  The one thing that was missed in all of your comments is the presence of adult bullying.  However petty to most (because they are not directly affected by it) it is still damaging.  All of the bullying programs in society deals with children "squabbles" as it was referred to in one post.  We live in a society now where adult bullying is destroying us (Congressional behavior, school shootings, etc.).  People don't settle their differences anymore with good old fashion sitting down and talking.  The answer to many disagreements is violence and however anyone wants to believe that it is not that big of a deal...it is.  I have lived it so often that I now know the signs of next level resolutions and I do turn and run because if the authorities don't give it credence, I am not going to wait for things to get better.  Honestly speaking, I have tried my best to offer my services as a skilled, knowledgeable leader in the scout program.  I give and speak respect and I live by the scout law.  I don't accept the "people are just people" mindset because scouting is supposed to be the ultimate, social standard bearer of morality.  That's why I have stayed so connected to it for so long.  The written doctrines of operation is what keeps me coming back.  Each new situation reminds me that those invaluable and unenforceable doctrines were written on toilet paper and just like the Bible, those words are left to the interpretation of the individual who reads them.  In my area, finding (committed) leaders is very difficult.  Nobody wants to be a part of the organization.  They want to drop off their children and let them babysit for a few minutes while they get a nap in the car.  There is no value in recognizing that anyone who aligns with the program and performs to standards (sometimes above) is entitled to the respect and protection that all of that training identifies (Youth Protection, Leader, Baloo, Woodbadge, etc.).  Clearly, I have been exposed to all of that.  At this point, I will say I do have an active lifestyle.  I do have other things I could be doing besides arming myself for a possible fight with a situation that deserves everyone's attention but gets reduced to a catfight.  I travel, I am associated with other groups and organizations that gives me pleasure and I have enough camping equipment (an activity I truly love) that I can go camping anytime I would like without waiting on scouting events.  If scouting has transformed into an operation where one needs to always be on alert and prepared for a beatdown (verbally or physically), I don't need it that bad.

[MattR]

9 minutes ago, mzzgwenf said:

The one thing that was missed in all of your comments is the presence of adult bullying. 

No, it was addressed. I said you can have her removed from the pack. I had a bully in my troop and I had him removed. I told him he was no longer welcome and if he showed up I would call the police. He left our troop, joined another and the exact same thing happened there. The council eventually set his son up as a lone scouter.

I think your challenge is that you don't know how or don't want to confront a bully. It is not easy and it takes all the fun out of scouting. I can't blame you for not wanting to deal with it. Unfortunately, nobody else is interested in leading that so it typically would be up to the unit leader, i.e., you,  to make it happen. Being the kind and loving cubmaster you are, it's likely not in your DNA to tell someone "leave or I will call the police." That's not very cubscout like. It really is getting in someone's face, drawing a line, and having the conviction to follow through. The fact that you asked for help and didn't get any just illustrates how leadership can be lonely at times.

Take care and enjoy camping.

[DuctTape]

Lately the continuum of behavior is far too often lumped together and called bullying. Not every interaction is bullying; I see parts of the continuum this way: rude-mean-bullying-harrassment-assault-battery 

How to deal with the situation depends on where on the continuum the situation lies. Bullying (IMO) is at the cusp of a criminal act. Bullying gone to far can be harassment which in my non-legal-training understanding is a crime in almost every state. Certainly if violence occurs, the situation has clearly crossed into the criminal. 

Earlier it was mentioned to call the police if indeed the behavior warrants it.

[skeptic]

Not to be mean or uncaring, but this is something with which adults simply found a way to deal with it, often with others in the group.  But, taking it to extremes and thinking somehow a local, adult confrontation should be handled beyond the immediate unit is extreme, as I see it.  Certainly the idea that somehow the National President somehow should be involved is surely not a real expectation, and really maybe not even the local head council executive.  

Guess I am viewing things from my age perspective.  Today, for some reason, many people think they need to find a solution beyond their own interpersonal groups.  This often is now seen in families too, where people try to involve outside people in solving their personal problems.  I live in a HOA, and we regularly get people that complain to the management and board about so and so, a neighbor, or someone in the larger HOA area.  But, they have made little or no effort to actually deal with it, but think the board can fix it, even when there is not a clear infraction, or even absolute eviden ce that a particular person is responsible.  And they often refuse to simply call police for trespass or noise disturbances, and even threats.  

I understand that people often are afraid of any confrontations, especially in our modern society where suing is a first resort, and often people are prone to overreaction and violence of some order.  Still, most problems can be solved with direct discussion and compromise.  Of course, our so called leaders have no idea how that works either, and meanwhile some people continue to bend rules and even laws with little accountibility.  

 

[mzzgwenf]

7 hours ago, MattR said:

No, it was addressed. I said you can have her removed from the pack. I had a bully in my troop and I had him removed. I told him he was no longer welcome and if he showed up I would call the police. He left our troop, joined another and the exact same thing happened there. The council eventually set his son up as a lone scouter.

I think your challenge is that you don't know how or don't want to confront a bully. It is not easy and it takes all the fun out of scouting. I can't blame you for not wanting to deal with it. Unfortunately, nobody else is interested in leading that so it typically would be up to the unit leader, i.e., you,  to make it happen. Being the kind and loving cubmaster you are, it's likely not in your DNA to tell someone "leave or I will call the police." That's not very cubscout like. It really is getting in someone's face, drawing a line, and having the conviction to follow through. The fact that you asked for help and didn't get any just illustrates how leadership can be lonely at times.

Take care and enjoy camping.

Thank you so much for that.  It was very inspiring.  And you are spot on in your description of my demeanor.

 

[mzzgwenf]

All of your input is well-received by me even if my jelly-fish like skin can feel the sting a little.  @skeptic I truly understand where you are coming from.  Please just bend a little and know that everyone does not possess the ability to stand up to a "bully" and be ready for the unknown consequences.  Unless the victim is just as aggressive, someone will have to bear the wounds.  What disturbs me, though, is that I do have an expectation of intervention.  I am very much aware of all these BSA rules placed upon leaders where accountability is the cloud we live under.  Leaders know that any act that compromises the integrity of the code, especially while in uniform, will be dealt with swiftly.  That is why I do not react.  I want to be in scouting.  Dealing with this person whose threat included informing me that she is from the "streets of Chicago" alerted me that this person is not an individual where talking is the option for resolution.  My perception was that she was letting me know that any attempt on my part to challenge her could result to some type of violence.  Now, being the compassionate person I am, I will always do the right thing first, foremost and forever and when that morality is compromised, I am not sticking around for the possible "what if."  Hopefully, everyone who has been reading (and responding to) my post have figured out that I am also very passionate about my affiliation with BSA.  I bleed blue and gold and I wear that loud-colored yellow shirt with ultimate pride.  And yes, I also expect the same protection from harm (emotional or physical) from the same people who will punish me if I do wrong.  So, I have deduced that it is better to send me away because I am the person who is making noise (via written complaints) about a BSA problem that should fall within a code of zero tolerance.  In a "bully" situation, the easiest path to resolution is to silence the whiny victim and err to the side of the bully.  @MattR your scenario is exactly like mine and I am sure most of you recognize it as well.  But retaining me is not the priority here.  Getting rid of the offended noise maker and not the abuser is an option that most people choose in situations like this.

[mzzgwenf]

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

Not to be mean or uncaring, but this is something with which adults simply found a way to deal with it, often with others in the group.  But, taking it to extremes and thinking somehow a local, adult confrontation should be handled beyond the immediate unit is extreme, as I see it.  Certainly the idea that somehow the National President somehow should be involved is surely not a real expectation, and really maybe not even the local head council executive.  

Guess I am viewing things from my age perspective.  Today, for some reason, many people think they need to find a solution beyond their own interpersonal groups.  This often is now seen in families too, where people try to involve outside people in solving their personal problems.  I live in a HOA, and we regularly get people that complain to the management and board about so and so, a neighbor, or someone in the larger HOA area.  But, they have made little or no effort to actually deal with it, but think the board can fix it, even when there is not a clear infraction, or even absolute eviden ce that a particular person is responsible.  And they often refuse to simply call police for trespass or noise disturbances, and even threats.  

I understand that people often are afraid of any confrontations, especially in our modern society where suing is a first resort, and often people are prone to overreaction and violence of some order.  Still, most problems can be solved with direct discussion and compromise.  Of course, our so called leaders have no idea how that works either, and meanwhile some people continue to bend rules and even laws with little accountibility.  

 

@skeptic I was looking at my front door to see if you would bang on it and tell me to suck it sugarbritches (that is a joke, ok).  To be honest, I am an extremist.  I have been told all my life that I look like a cat because of my eyes, and I know how I respond when I get backed into a corner.  That is why I am constantly emphasizing the possibility of violence (on my part as well) as the solution to this situation.  It's funny you presented the HOA scenario because just last night I was watching youtube videos about neighbors getting revenge on each other and in many of those situations, violence was the answer.  We citizens just enjoy taunting each other to a point of no return and enjoy the outcome that was caused by the abuser.  Most of the time, its the victim that goes to jail due to how they reacted after calling the police and nothing is done.  When that happens, the abuser gets worse now because they know the protective system that would intervene and stop the offensive behavior is looking the other way.  The victim gets fed up and, consequences be damed, they are tired of this neighbor disturbing their peace.  I hope you and all of the other posters are listening to me.  Do not discount the perceived simplicity of my situation.  If your HOA(BSA) will hold you accountable for your clock radio being too loud at 6:00 am in the morning (bad parent in BSA), then they should also receive and address your issues and concerns (written complaints through BSA echelon) and apply the same credence of accountability.

 

[5thGenTexan]

Unless there is a YPT violation or criminal activity...  District and up is not going to get involved in Unit level issues.  

[mzzgwenf]

@5thGenTexanYou don't realize it but you just gave me the "lightbulb moment" solution to my problem.  All these years, I have gone from pack to pack serving in leadership roles and operating under the adverse culture they have established.  In most cases, there are no rules, everyone just doing things their own personal way and the scout way is a nuisance to them.  So....I have made a decision..  I need to start my own pack.  I have been wanting to do that for years and I have the time and the money to invest in that plan.  After I press submit to this post, I will start googling how to start a cub scout pack and follow all of the requirements and recommendations.  I will change my district and hopefully, within a couple of months, I will be raising a flag representing a new pack.  The most important thing I will do is institure an enforceable zero tolerance behavior policy for both scouts and adults and make sure all is aware of it upon membership signup.  In exchange for said trust in my ability to lead with quality, I will make sure every scout and every parent will have a memorable scouting experience.  I will start with a good (community) funding for the acquisition of pack equipment and make sure we are fully engaged in both community and scouting activities.  I am very capable of making this happen because I know how a cub scout pack is supposed to operate and that is exactly how my new pack will function and perform.  I know there will be some naysayers on here who will scuff at this plan and say, yeah right.  She can't even handle a basic confrontation with one of her parents.  That situation occurred because I came into the pack where that culture was already in place and it was allowed by the entire pack leadership with friendship being the allowable reason for letting it happen.  I know how to run a pack and get amazing, positive results.  It is my hope to put this new pack on the map with recognizable success being acknowledged by the 2021-2022 school year's end.  If you are interested, I will create a new discussion subject and keep all of you abreast of my progress (with no hyperbole or embellishment).  I will bring morality back into scouting!

 

[scoutldr]

8 hours ago, mzzgwenf said:

All these years, I have gone from pack to pack serving in leadership roles and operating under the adverse culture they have established. 

Remind me of a Scoutmaster's Minute:

"A man who was traveling came upon a farmer working in his field and asked him what the people in the next village were like. The farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?" The man responded "They were kind, friendly, generous, great people." "You'll find the people in the next village are the same," said the farmer.

Another man who was traveling to the same village came up to the same farmer somewhat later and asked him what the people in the next village were like. Again the farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?" The second man responded, "They were rude, unfriendly, dishonest people." "You'll find the people in the next village are the same," said the farmer."

No disrespect intended, but after many years on this forum, we know that there are at LEAST two sides to every story and we are only hearing one.  I admire you for your passion and wanting nothing but the best for the Scouts, and wanting to start a new unit.  But it will NOT be "your" unit...it will be the Chartering Organization's unit, and you will work for them.  IF you can find one in these uncertain times.  Scouting is a partnership, consisting of the Scouts, their parents, the adult volunteers, the CO, and the BSA.  ALL must work together, and in harmony.  All we can hope for is that we all "Do Your Best" to make a positive experience for the Scouts.

Good luck, and God Bless.