Webelos / AOL Campout

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 hours ago, yknot said:

Well, try Mr. Google. You can learn all about how lasers are used in bird dispersal. Or there are Audubon chapters in almost every state. Stop by and talk to someone sometime. We're supposed to be an outdoors conservation minded organization. I would think stuff like this wouldn't exactly be news. 

I'm not gonna do the heavy lifting on your argument.  If you actually have a position to support, then support it.

Thanks @qwazse!  And the dispersal method is actually to aim the laser at the birds!  https://biglasers.com/blog/2022/08/16/understanding-green-laser-pointers-for-canada-goose-control/

Of course I would never do this... And, if you've ever used one responsibly, you know it only takes a second or two of pointing at your star to have everyone know exactly which one you are talking about.

It's nothing like the duration of say, those Christmas laser light displays people put up on their houses which go all night, in indiscriminate directions.

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 hours ago, yknot said:

Well, try Mr. Google. You can learn all about how lasers are used in bird dispersal. Or there are Audubon chapters in almost every state. Stop by and talk to someone sometime. We're supposed to be an outdoors conservation minded organization. I would think stuff like this wouldn't exactly be news. 

And btw, I am a Leave No Trace Master Educator.  Never in any syllabus item or class of instruction have we discussed laser pointers.

Just did a quick search of ALL my Instructor materials issued by BSA and LNT.... how many hits for 'laser'?? Zero.

And, you can use "Mr. Google", too!  (and it is rather sexist of you to assume Google is a 'Mr.' 😜  but we will allow it )  Search the lnt.org site for the word laser, and you know how many hits you get?  Zero.

OK, so I'll go another mile in those shoes...

https://www.sfvaudubon.org/a-guide-to-bird-locating/

Laser Pointers: Pen-sized lasers are now available in various powers and produce either a red or a (preferred) green beam.  Many professional tour guides use them; not all are equally adept at using them.  The key is to start from something obvious like a large rock or tree trunk.  Starting somewhere close to the bird is far less important.  Once everyone sees your laser “dot”, they can follow it as you move it along trunk, limb and twig to the bird.  Never shine the beam on the bird.  Keep the dot where the bird cannot see it so you don’t startle it.  Just below the bird works well, as does slowly circling the bird.  The dot will display better on solid objects like trunks or twigs than on leaves.  Avoid jerky movements.  In a forest of leaves, a moving laser beam scatters over many yards.  Birders more than a few feet to either side of the pointer-holder sees only a series of bright dots scattered over many leaves and won’t have a clue as to which dot is nearest the bird.  Warn the viewers of this scattering and reduce beam movement to a minimum.  

Your Honor, I rest my case.

[malraux]

The guidance against lasers in that NPS citation seems to be against using it to tag wildlife, not against night usage for stargazing. Context is everything. You wouldn't use that page to argue that flashlights are a bad idea on scouting trips because it bans spotlights.

[jcousino]

Just a side note about point a laser in the sky be sure not to point them at an airplane as this can results in criminal penalties.

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Just a side note about point a laser in the sky be sure not to point them at an airplane as this can results in criminal penalties.

On 2/2/2023 at 11:31 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Be careful not to use when aircraft are in the area you are pointing.  (Flashing aircraft with a laser is a felony!  https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/protecting-aircraft-from-lasers )

From post yesterday...

[yknot]

If, for some reason, you put a few hundred kids in flying monkey suits in the night sky above you, and you knew they were there and unseen in the dark, you wouldn't risk pointing your laser up there during an astronomy lesson, would you? I would think you would want to give their eyes a wide berth. I'm not a Leave No Trace instructor, but I think the whole point of LNT is to universally leave things that are out there in their own habitat unharmed and undisturbed within it as much as possible. At least by scouts. 

Googling pretty much confirms that lasers are harmful or at least disruptive to the normal activity of avian wildlife, and used to haze and disperse them; birding experts only use lasers in daylight when they can see what they are doing and know they are not hitting or disturbing anything. If there's any lingering doubt that migrating birds are in the skies at night at high concentrations during certain periods,  consult this web site anytime after March 1: birdcast.info. It's a joint project between CSU and Cornell and uses weather surveillance data, radar, and other tools to issue migration forecasts. You can look at the radar and actually see the density of birds overhead during migration. Somewhere around four billion birds migrate in our portion of the hemisphere spring and fall. You might not see them unless you are looking at a fairly full moon through binoculars, but they are there. They are impossible to miss, in more than one way. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, yknot said:

but I think the whole point of LNT is to universally leave things that are out there in their own habitat unharmed and undisturbed within it as much as possible.

If you see that as the point, then please, follow your beliefs and never go into the woods again.  Also, please stop using electricity, because the windmills are killing far more birds...

As for me, until something more conclusive than your concoction emerges from scientific study and observation, I'll happily bring out my laser pointer to educate Scouts.

Happy Scouting 

Edited February 4, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[DuctTape]

The reason I do not use pointers for astronomy is to provide scouts et al better opportunity to appreciate the greater cosmos, and to become a guide themselves and not simply an audience.

Imagine using descriptive language and the stars as pointers as the main guide. The purpose is to have viewers not just see a particular object, but see it within the greater cosmos. Also the joy experienced by a new sky viewer when they finally "find" the stellar object themselves. Sooner or later they then begin to describe to others how to find it. This creates a cycle of not just pointing out specific items, but for the participants to begin looking for other objects and guiding others to them as well.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The reason I do not use pointers for astronomy is to provide scouts et al better opportunity to appreciate the greater cosmos, and to become a guide themselves and not simply an audience.

Imagine using descriptive language and the stars as pointers as the main guide. The purpose is to have viewers not just see a particular object, but see it within the greater cosmos. Also the joy experienced by a new sky viewer when they finally "find" the stellar object themselves. Sooner or later they then begin to describe to others how to find it. This creates a cycle of not just pointing out specific items, but for the participants to begin looking for other objects and guiding others to them as well.

Agreed.  But there are some who cannot "get it", even though you explain it ten times.  Also, I do let Scouts use the laser to point out the North Star to me, as a check of whether they have "got it."  I was surprised at how many, for instance, know the method... pointers stars from the Big Dipper , then five times the distance to hit Polaris... but in practice it seems only about 70-80% can do this.  That is, I ask them to tell how to find the North Star, then they explain it, and point in the general direction, but when I give them the laser to show me, they are off by a lot.  This even even after I have them use the two sticks in the ground method of aligning a "gun sight" (so to speak).

This also helps tremendously with Astronomy MB, Req 4:

(a) Identify in the sky at least 10 constellations, at least four of which are in the zodiac. (b) Identify in the sky at least eight conspicuous stars, five of which are of magnitude 1 or brighter.  

For these, I use star charts, drawings, apps, telescopes or binoculars on a tripod, and pictures before pulling out the laser 😜 

It is just one of many resources to use...

[qwazse]

FWIW, I posed the issue of pen pointers to birders on a trail group and to our ASM who is all about bird conservation. They felt that there was no probability of a stargazing instructor inadvertently misdirecting migratory foul. These are mostly PA and WV birders, and they contend with a lot of light pollution. A laser pen pales in comparison to airplanes, fracking towers and windmills. So, as always, your mileage may vary. It’s a big country.

[RangerEagle]

Campout went well. Weather was cold with snow on the ground, so Thursday night had a quick powwow with the parents to ensure all were willing and prepared for it. 

 

Last den meeting the boys planned the menu. As expected, hot dogs, PB&J, were the main items.

 

First night, boys put up their tents. We had a quick meeting about expectations for the weekend and told them staying dry was key to the weekend. They also made a fire without matches. Last year they all got fire starters and learned how to use lint to start a fire, so this was a good opportunity for them to use that skill again. Clear skies, so we did astronomy. They identified multiple constellations and learned how to find the North Star. Didn't take a laser pointer, but one kid had a flashlight that was pretty much a spotlight. Worked well for pointing out individual stars and drawing the line from the Big Dipper to the North Star. Earned 10 frost points over night.

 

Saturday morning, boys made pancakes and sausage and did clean-up. We then did a flag ceremony before they made their lunches and cleaned up. Went on a hike. Patrol leader learned why the question is "is anybody not ready?" instead of "everyone ready?" Our navigator almost lead us astray before I encouraged him to check the map instead of his gut. Had they been in a Troop, I'd let them go the wrong way, but Cub Scouts still need that direct intervention. Was supposed to be longer, but with snow and mud, ended up shorter. 3.25 miles, with a lunch break. Used the Philmont Grace before meals. I'll say a line and have them repeat. Someday they will learn it! Boys also learned why I stressed the importance of staying dry. They all had dry shoes at camp, but learned that cold wet feet are not happy feet. We were looking at going around a lake, but I said I didn't think we could cross the stream. They wanted to show they could and ended up in knee deep snow melt. Lesson learned! While on the trail we went over LNT and Outdoor Code. They are still working on keeping the 4 Cs and the 7 LNT principles separate. Also worked on Into the Woods. Returning to camp we got dry socks and shoes on then played ladder ball before they went to build a snow fort. Supper they roasted their hotdogs and I showed them how to use a dutch oven and made a cobbler. Conducted a flag retirement ceremony during campfire. They then created a game where someone would bring a block of snow and they'd guess how many minutes it would last on the grate above the fire. 14 frost points.

 

Sunday morning they made taquitos, broke camp, and we headed home. 

 

Ensuring everyone had proper gear was essential. I brought extras, including hand warmers. Lots of blankets to form insulation under their sleeping bags. And dry socks and shoes! 

 

Also made an adaptation from Thorns and Roses. Figured the thorn for all would be the hike, so had them all say what they enjoyed most from the weekend. They weren't interested in my "mindfulness scavenger hunt" while hiking, but this helped create some mindfulness and focus on the positives.