Unit Recharter in Question

[yknot]

15 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 

Wow.  Well ... It has not been in there for long.  Sometime after April 2021.  The Way Back machine doesn't even have the new version archived yet.  The April 2021 version can be found on that site.  There is zero such reference.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210410212338/http://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

[malraux]

6 hours ago, yknot said:

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

I don't know how long it has been the rule, but it was certainly an element of my baloo training back in 2018.

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, yknot said:

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

Another provision many councils do not support units for...

[Eagledad]

8 hours ago, yknot said:

I was surprised by something else in that link. Further down it talks about Pack overnight campsite approvals. I've been out of cubs awhile but that's new to me and to most of our area units evidently because most of the popular cub scout camping sites in use around here would not meet all the criteria on the linked appraisal form. 

Seem pretty basic. What is not provided in your council?

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding the multi units from CO rule, that has been around since at least 2002, but it was in the NCS literature, not G2SS. Ditto the Cub Family Camping rules, although some councils never really did much to promote Cub Camping. Heck I remember one Camping Committee member back in the day saying Cubs don't need to camp.

As for Councils not providing stuff, the #1 used camp over the past 20 years do not have showers, which was a requirement until recently, nor enough bathrooms. And my council never had a list of approved Cub campgrounds. So several packs used the OA's Where to Go Camping book to select campgrounds.

[InquisitiveScouter]

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Seem pretty basic. What is not provided in your council?

Barry

Barry, not speaking for @yknot, but in my experience with three different councils for Cub camping, when I asked about council approval for Cub camping locations, I had to school them on the requirement for council approval.  Then, they (usually the Council Camping Committee Staff Advisor) just told me to use the criteria on the form, and if it met them, we were approved (that is, the unit provides their own appraisal, even though this is prohibited.)

[Eagledad]

17 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As for Councils not providing stuff, the #1 used camp over the past 20 years do not have showers, which was a requirement until recently, nor enough bathrooms. And my council never had a list of approved Cub campgrounds. So several packs used the OA's Where to Go Camping book to select campgrounds.

Your number one used camp doesn't have showers? Is that not your Boy Scout summer camp?

Barry

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Barry, not speaking for @yknot, but in my experience with three different councils for Cub camping, when I asked about council approval for Cub camping locations, I had to school them on the requirement for council approval.  Then, they (usually the Council Camping Committee Staff Advisor) just told me to use the criteria on the form, and if it met them, we were approved (that is, the unit provides their own appraisal, even though this is prohibited.)

So, your saying, the camp may have all the requirements for cub camping, it's just hasn't been officially approved for Cub camping by the council. Is that right?

Barry

Edited November 22, 2021 by Eagledad

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

So, your saying, the camp may have all the requirements for cub camping, it's just not officially approved by the council. Is that right?

Barry

Yes, exactly, and so we just used them "on our own."  But, I have had Cubs camping at locations that did not meet the criteria ("Drinking water from an approved source is provided at convenient locations.")  We brought our own, and deemed this to meet the criterion.

The appraisal form specifically says "This site appraisal form is to be used by the local BSA council to evaluate pack overnight family camping locations. It should be kept on file in the council office for local unit reference and is periodically reviewed for accuracy."

The three councils I dealt with had no forms "...on file in the council office for local unit reference..."  It is not a MUST for councils, it is a SHOULD, and that was probably their mindset in not having them in-house.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/430-90218-PackOvernightForm_Fillable.pdf

Edited November 22, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[MattR]

Our cub camp doesn't have showers. It is a 10 min drive to the showers at scout camp but all the water is turned off for all but summer so everyone brings their own water when they camp.

Maybe the real rules, the ones in the inspection, are different.

[Eagledad]

Hmm, well that seems like a ding against the idea of units running independently without the Council. Of course I come from a time of units required to use Tour Permits. The council has to approve all camp activities the units apply for. I liked liked Tour Permits because it provided a check list for units to verify they were prepared to travel and camp camp. I'm not sure what I think about a unit waiting for the approval of something they could do themselves. I'll have to think about that. Our pack and dens camped at many State Packs that met the criteria. 

Barry

[Eagledad]

Just now, MattR said:

Our cub camp doesn't have showers. It is a 10 min drive to the showers at scout camp but all the water is turned off for all but summer so everyone brings their own water when they camp.

Maybe the real rules, the ones in the inspection, are different.

Our camps are Cub and Troop friendly, so this is new to me. Thanks.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Your number one used camp doesn't have showers? Is that not your Boy Scout summer camp?

Barry

No, the #1 used camp is the old summer camp that has turned "rustic" with cap improvements being done by the OA and individual units. Until 2019 that camp actually subsidized the main camp via  the usage and logging. In 2019, it was closed for 9 months while they repaired a road. Council tried to say that camp cost nearly $70/camper to maintain, but used the 2019 camping numbers, which only had 3 months of camping due to the road, as well as the capital expense of the road included in figuring out the $70/ Camper. In fact another council camp was only used once during 2019, and that was because the district camporee had to be moved to that one because the most used camp was still closed. 

And no, not all councils take care of their Cubs. We have 4 camps, and I have been to 3 of the them. Out of three, only 1 meets all Cub Scout requirements. Do not know about the third.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding the multi units from CO rule, that has been around since at least 2002, but it was in the NCS literature, not G2SS.

NCS ... National Camping School ... I'm aware of it, but I know zero unit adults that have used NCS in their unit.  That's always about council staff running council camps.  Unit scouters use G2SS.  If it's not in G2SS, it's effectively not real guidance to units.  

As far as I'm concerned, this is a new rule introduced since April 2021.  Rules not provided to units can't be held as real rules.  

IMHO ... there is a line somewhere here.  The rule intention seems more about units trying to create something that competes with council / district activities.  The rule correctly points out that units are not the right level to do that.  ... BUT there is something less that should be reasonable.  Units should be able to partner to help each other.  Blocking that is just not scout-like and not a good idea.

[KublaiKen]

It seems to me as though BSA is adding a new rule (or propagating it for the first time) that works to further silo units when we should be trying to be more ecumenical, both among the units and programs within BSA and without. I was just discussing a joint camp out with a neighboring Troop and now I wonder if it could even be approved. And it would hardly be competition with corporate, since our District only does one camporee a year. It's knee jerk, but I don't like the rule.