Unit Recharter in Question

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I agree with Mrjohns that that's not the rule, unless your council is locally imposing it.  

Even if they do impose that there would be no additional cost.  You can "multiple" register with multiple units, but you pay only one egistratin fee.

You cannot register as a MB Counselor (for free) and then multiple to a unit.  You must pay the adult registration fee.  Then you can multiple all you want...

And yes, our council (at least a few years ago when I posed the question) interprets that as registered in the unit. (for unit events)

The council has oversight for HA contingents and Jamborees, so they can vet those leaders...

 

 

[awanatech]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:21 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

You cannot register as a MB Counselor (for free) and then multiple to a unit.  You must pay the adult registration fee.  Then you can multiple all you want...

And yes, our council (at least a few years ago when I posed the question) interprets that as registered in the unit. (for unit events)

The council has oversight for HA contingents and Jamborees, so they can vet those leaders...

 

 

I've never seen the requirement that the leader be registered "in that unit".  I would say that a MBC would be allowed to attend outing longer than 72 hours, as they are registered leaders & approved by council. 

I guess some councils may not agree with that, but I look at it as reading the requirements, not adding to nor taking away from the requirements as written.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, awanatech said:

I've never seen the requirement that the leader be registered "in that unit".  I would say that a MBC would be allowed to attend outing longer than 72 hours, as they are registered leaders & approved by council. 

I guess some councils may not agree with that, but I look at it as reading the requirements, not adding to nor taking away from the requirements as written.

Wow.  Writing a simple, but precise document is really hard.  

G2SS seems vague.  It's clear, the person must be registered with BSA (aka background checks, etc ... who calls the references on the adult leader app ... the local council?  ???) ... But page 1 "Adult Supervision" sometimes refers to "registered in the unit" and sometimes just "registered as leaders".  

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... numbered page #1

Unless the G2SS is re-written more precisely, I'd interpret the words as written. 

G2SS Pate 1 ... "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders."  

If you can show me your BSA membership ID, you fulfill the requirement.  As a unit leader, I should check that your registration and training is current.  BUT, you are still registered.  Plus, everyone that registers fills out the same BSA Adult Leader App.  It's just that MBCs have an affiliation with council or district and not with a specific unit. 

I'd worry about inferring too much.  It creates other problems.  Would an ASM from a near-by troop be sufficient to fulfill the adult supervision?  I'd really hope so.  Multiple times we've had a patrol from another troop join us on campouts with only one of their leaders attending.  The combination of their and our leader(s) fulfilled the adult supervision requirement.  I see zero issue with doing that in the future.

[malraux]

My only caution with allowing any registered leader to count as per ypt is in a unit who's charter org wants more detailed background checks, interviews, or training requirements. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Would an ASM from a near-by troop be sufficient to fulfill the adult supervision?  I'd really hope so.  Multiple times we've had a patrol from another troop join us on campouts with only one of their leaders attending.  The combination of their and our leader(s) fulfilled the adult supervision requirement.  I see zero issue with doing that in the future.

No.  The reason is that your CO must approve all adult leaders.  For example, since a CO may exclude unit leaders from serving their unit who do not meet with their own religious or sexual orientation standards, you cannot simply pull a leader from nearby troop.

"Registration Requirements

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training

Volunteer Screening Database check

Current Youth Protection training is required for leaders when renewing their registration or at unit charter renewal.

Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

Also, BSA policy (promulgated through their COVID FAQ and not through the G2SS, so good luck enforcing that one local and national councils)  forbids inter-unit overnight activities  without approval from council.

"Q: If my camp is cancelled, can my unit get together with other units and have our own camp?

No. Chartering organizations play an important role in the program and activities for their chartered units. Chartering organizations promote well-planned unit program for the units they charter and encourage their units to have active outdoor unit programs. Chartering organizations are not authorized to plan, promote, or deliver programs for units outside of their charter.

It is the role of councils to plan long-term or resident camps and the role of councils or districts to plan camporees (short-term camps) and other outings following National Camp Accreditation Program standards.   

Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. In addition, some states require such activities to be licensed."

https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

However, I'm of the mindset that if your CO approves (even only verbally through your COR), then you are good to go.

 

[skeptic]

Not certain the above is accurate, but if somehow it is, it discourages Scouting brotherhood, sharing with other units in activities.  I do not see an issue with two or even three units combining on some activities, both for the needed participation for success, and for the simple concept of Scout Spirit and sharing.  IF a CO has reservations, then they can make that decision related to a specific activity.  I do not see most having any real issues with other unit events and visiting and participating.  Our summer camp regularly attaches occasional provisional scouts to units for various reasons, with the approvals of the other units and the parents.  Maybe I am not reading other comments accurately?

After all, how would this apply to a Jamboree?

Edited November 21, 2021 by skeptic
Add last line.

[MattR]

I'd respect the need for CO approval for inter unit campouts but not allowing it at all sounds like a rule that should be dropped with BSA 2.0.

Any chance this was just a way to prevent LDS units from having their own camporees?

[fred8033]

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No.  The reason is that your CO must approve all adult leaders.  For example, since a CO may exclude unit leaders from serving their unit who do not meet with their own religious or sexual orientation standards, you cannot simply pull a leader from nearby troop.

"Registration Requirements

The chartered organization representative, or in their absence the executive officer of the chartered organization, must approve the registration of the unit’s adult leaders.

Registration includes:

Completion of application including criminal background check and mandatory Youth Protection training

Volunteer Screening Database check

Current Youth Protection training is required for leaders when renewing their registration or at unit charter renewal.

Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

Also, BSA policy (promulgated through their COVID FAQ and not through the G2SS, so good luck enforcing that one local and national councils)  forbids inter-unit overnight activities  without approval from council.

"Q: If my camp is cancelled, can my unit get together with other units and have our own camp?

No. Chartering organizations play an important role in the program and activities for their chartered units. Chartering organizations promote well-planned unit program for the units they charter and encourage their units to have active outdoor unit programs. Chartering organizations are not authorized to plan, promote, or deliver programs for units outside of their charter.

It is the role of councils to plan long-term or resident camps and the role of councils or districts to plan camporees (short-term camps) and other outings following National Camp Accreditation Program standards.   

Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. In addition, some states require such activities to be licensed."

https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

However, I'm of the mindset that if your CO approves (even only verbally through your COR), then you are good to go.

 

Really interesting post with interesting details. 

Your 1st half (befor COVID FAQ) ... I'd argue your CO can require that both supervising adults be members of your CO unit, but the G2SS does not explicitly require that.  It's your CO's choice.  The G2SS has a vague flip-flop.  Rarlier refering to "in a unit serving" and later just refering to registered leaders. 

The 72 hour paragraph never says "unit" anywhere.  It refers only to registered leaders; aka BSA application; BSA background check and not removed from BSA.

We've always had trouble differentiating BSA registration versus unit registration.  Just because BSA has very open membership requirements does not mean your CO has to approve the application.  Similar for activities.  BSA requires "registered leaders".  Your CO can require more.  

I always fear reading in more meaning than explicitly stated.  I'd fear applying that same level of extra inferrence into other requirements.   

COVID FAQ ... Yeah, I'd again argue you are reading more into the statement than the purpose.

• COVID FAQ is for the duration of the COVID pandemic.  As the world return to normal, there is a gray area.  After COVID, this COVID FAQ is useless. 
• BSA is fearing rogue units not respecting COVID protocols.  BSA does not want units defeating COVID protocols by effectively doing their own district / council camporees.  
• BSA COVID FAQ does not preclude two COs from detailed planning their own camp together.  Two COs could align and agree on the benefits and structure of a camp out.  ... The issue is DURING THE PANDEMIC.  BSA asks the units to let the council know. 
• The COVID FAQ sentence that SCARES ME the most is:  "Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. "  ... I trust this is only for DURING THE PANDEMIC.  I've never seen that written before.  So much for three troops sharing a MB Saturday.  So much for inter-unit activities.  ... I see this as a one-off, put in a COVID FAQ for a immediate now issue; aka pandemic.  ...  I'm not sure it will hold water long-term.  It's definitely not in the G2SS right now.  I'm not sure if units are accountable to every FAQ published or just to the explicit policy / procedure statements.  ... IMHO, this is a huge G2SS expansion with a much stricter rule.  Heck, I'm betting the LCs don't want that role any more than approving travel permits.

The original question is whether the 72 hour rule "registered as leaders" means registered in the same troop.  I really just don't see that explicitly said.  I'd hate to read more into it than explicitly written.  

Even then, we'd just ask the person to quickly fill out another adult leader app ... have them submit it.  Then their leader becomes an ASM on our troop and our leader becomes an ASM in their troop.  

Fundamentals

Ultimately ... The CO better trust the COR, CC and SM to follow G2SS.  If the CO wants the activity leaders registered in their unit, that's their choice and their unit leaders better follow thru.  

Edited November 21, 2021 by fred8033

[malraux]

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

The COVID FAQ sentence that scares me the most is:  "Units with different chartered organizations that wish to hold activities together must have council approval. "  I've never seen that written before.  So much for three troops sharing a MB Saturday.  So much for inter-unit activities.  ... I see this as a one-off, put in a COVID FAQ for a immediate now issue; aka pandemic.  ...  I'm not sure it will hold water long-term.  It's definitely not in the G2SS right now.  I'm not sure if units are accountable to every FAQ published or just to the explicit policy / procedure statements.  ... IMHO, this is a huge G2SS expansion with a much stricter rule.  Heck, I'm betting the LCs don't want that role any more than approving travel permits.

This has been policy for a long while. I forget where it is written down, but it isn't just a covid thing. It isn't strongly enforced except when units want to hold a district camporee without district oversight.

[fred8033]

3 minutes ago, malraux said:

This has been policy for a long while. I forget where it is written down, but it isn't just a covid thing. It isn't strongly enforced except when units want to hold a district camporee without district oversight.

Thanks.  I will have to hunt that sentence down.  I've never seen it.

... I'm hunting.  I can't find a BSA reference outside COVID protocols.

If you can publish a source, I'd really appreciate it.  ... I fully accept being wrong.  I'd just like a source if I'm wrong. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If you can publish a source, I'd really appreciate it.  ... I fully accept being wrong.  I'd just like a source if I'm wrong. 

Don't think you will find one.

Totally agree with anyone who sees vaguely written policies as a problem.  And yes, G2SS and other policies are vague in many areas.

You all realize the G2SS and many other BSA policies are written  vaguely intentionally, right?  It gives the BSA more legal wiggle room if things go wonky, or so I'm told by my lawyer friends.

I pointed out many of these discrepancies to council and national reps, and this messenger has been shot multiple times.

[fred8033]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Don't think you will find one.

Totally agree with anyone who sees vaguely written policies as a problem.  And yes, G2SS and other policies are vague in many areas.

You all realize the G2SS and many other BSA policies are written  vaguely intentionally, right?  It gives the BSA more legal wiggle room if things go wonky, or so I'm told by my lawyer friends.

I pointed out many of these discrepancies to council and national reps, and this messenger has been shot multiple times.

Agreed.  Outside of COVID statements, I question if it existed before.  I do weirdly appreciate learning where I'm wrong.  I am not sure yet though that it's different than I wrote.  ... I just don't like infer more strictness in rules than really exist. 

[malraux]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Thanks.  I will have to hunt that sentence down.  I've never seen it.

... I'm hunting.  I can't find a BSA reference outside COVID protocols.

If you can publish a source, I'd really appreciate it.  ... I fully accept being wrong.  I'd just like a source if I'm wrong. 

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

Quote

• Local council approval is needed for unit-coordinated overnight camping activities involving other units not chartered by the same organization. Units that wish to host events involving other units that do not share the same charter partner must have approval from their council. This includes events for packs, troops, crews, and ships from the same council; neighboring councils; the same territory; or other territory.

My impression is that language has been there for a while, but I might be mistaken. Also that is specific to camping, but I again am pretty sure I've seen similar language elsewhere for other events. And its worth pointing out that this language technically makes most webelos visits to troop campouts problematic.

[T2Eagle]

I've read all the BSA rules I can find, backwards and forwards, I'm pretty sure I've never seen this one before Covid.

Interestingly, it has nothing to do with CO rules or CO approval of leaders, because it's up to council to approve, so there's no formal approval needed fro the CO.

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, malraux said:

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

My impression is that language has been there for a while, but I might be mistaken. Also that is specific to camping, but I again am pretty sure I've seen similar language elsewhere for other events. And its worth pointing out that this language technically makes most webelos visits to troop campouts problematic.

 

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I've read all the BSA rules I can find, backwards and forwards, I'm pretty sure I've never seen this one before Covid.

Interestingly, it has nothing to do with CO rules or CO approval of leaders, because it's up to council to approve, so there's no formal approval needed fro the CO.

Wow.  Well ... It has not been in there for long.  Sometime after April 2021.  The Way Back machine doesn't even have the new version archived yet.  The April 2021 version can be found on that site.  There is zero such reference.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210410212338/http://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

This re-write seems focused on laying down further restrictions.  

I always wonder whether BSA gets well considered review when these edits happen.  OR if an exec says "reword the page and add this".

Agreed that this has zero to do with CO rules or approvals.  

This re-write seems confusing and I'm betting further re-writes will happen soon.