Unit Recharter in Question

[fred8033]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:14 AM, MattR said:

Do you remember the early days of credit cards when a transaction consisted of putting the card and carbon paper into the slide gizmo that would imprint the card information onto the paper and then the clerk would write the totals in and you'd sign it? The cost of that was probably a few dollars per transaction. Now I tap my card against the reader.

Rather than forms and signatures how about a driver's license and a phone app? Drive the price down so every school and church wants to use it as well. As people have said, CSA is likely widespread. So why not work on a global solution?

I know, the BSA can't solve technical problems. But maybe if they tried they'd describe the problem they and all youth activities have to some companies that do these searches and just one of them would see an opportunity.

This issue of background checks is not a fundamental problem. It's just a technical one. A bigger issue is changing adult perceptions consistently across the organization. Most scouters understand CSA but I've seen too many that think they know better about everything. That's okay when it comes to rank advancement but when they screw up and suddenly my troop no longer has a camp to use, it's a problem for all of us.

CSA is the bankruptcy driver, but I doubt BSA can limit background checks to that.  BSA needs to look for criminal records that are kept at national, state and county levels.  You also need to handle identity confirmation.  This is not a minor challenge.  Applications arrive at the registration office from online or via paper.  They don't get to see a drivers license or identity card. 

This was a big expensive challenge in the 1980s.  

Each decade has introduced improvements.  It's much easier now, but it's still not cheap.  It costs money especially as you multiple the number by hundreds of thousands of registered adult volunteers.  

[awanatech]

On 11/15/2021 at 1:19 PM, jcousino said:

Ok while i like my version better after rereading my quote it looks like it only applies to summer camp . i was wrong sorry

.

I would begin to question any adult that would not do a background check or complete youth protection after any form of 72 hours of contact

I personaly like the idea that it should be cumulative if an adult is attending scouting events in an active role with youth content  for that long they have had enough time to decide that they want to be a some type of leader or not. 

If after that period they say then still say no then they stay home if the adult plays the parental card  then you may have the parent and the youth leave the group. 

I  side of the protection of the many.

 

When BSA as an organization has talked about events and meetings being open to parental observation, this mindset seems to go completely against that. Basically, if a parent does want to become a leader (an insider), then they are not allowed to observe what happens when their child is at a Scout event, right? 

[T2Eagle]

23 minutes ago, awanatech said:

When BSA as an organization has talked about events and meetings being open to parental observation, this mindset seems to go completely against that. Basically, if a parent does want to become a leader (an insider), then they are not allowed to observe what happens when their child is at a Scout event, right? 

I don't quite understand what you mean here.  If a parent is also a leader, clearly they will be observing what happens with their child at a scout event because they'll be helping to run or at least guide the event itself.

[malraux]

2 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I don't quite understand what you mean here.  If a parent is also a leader, clearly they will be observing what happens with their child at a scout event because they'll be helping to run or at least guide the event itself.

its more that if I must register as a leader to observe, then you can't also have it where every parent can observe everything.

[T2Eagle]

On 11/15/2021 at 1:19 PM, jcousino said:

Ok while i like my version better after rereading my quote it looks like it only applies to summer camp . i was wrong sorry

.

I would begin to question any adult that would not do a background check or complete youth protection after any form of 72 hours of contact

I personaly like the idea that it should be cumulative if an adult is attending scouting events in an active role with youth content  for that long they have had enough time to decide that they want to be a some type of leader or not. 

If after that period they say then still say no then they stay home if the adult plays the parental card  then you may have the parent and the youth leave the group. 

I  side of the protection of the many.

 

I don't want to belabor this point too much, but kids can be registered as scouts for upwards of 12 years.  Attend a pack campout when your kid is in second grade, 6PM Friday night through noon on Sunday is 42 hours.  So if you want to go on the same campout next year you're over the 72 hours and need to register.  Finesse the hours a little and maybe you don't have to register until your kid is in fourth grade, but at that point you need to remain a registered leader for another eight years, or never camp with your kid again.  

Even if you reset when you crossover to ScoutsBSA, you're talking about 1 1/2 campouts and then you're obligated to remain registered for more than half a decade.  So for instance, you're a big skier, and you're really only interested in helping the troop for the annual ski trip, that's 7 years worth of registration, fees, and training, for one campout a year.

[yknot]

22 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I don't want to belabor this point too much, but kids can be registered as scouts for upwards of 12 years.  Attend a pack campout when your kid is in second grade, 6PM Friday night through noon on Sunday is 42 hours.  So if you want to go on the same campout next year you're over the 72 hours and need to register.  Finesse the hours a little and maybe you don't have to register until your kid is in fourth grade, but at that point you need to remain a registered leader for another eight years, or never camp with your kid again.  

Even if you reset when you crossover to ScoutsBSA, you're talking about 1 1/2 campouts and then you're obligated to remain registered for more than half a decade.  So for instance, you're a big skier, and you're really only interested in helping the troop for the annual ski trip, that's 7 years worth of registration, fees, and training, for one campout a year.

It ought to be every participatory parent (meaning you attend things with your kid) takes YPT, submits to a background check, and the parent pays the (typically nominal) fee. If you want to go on and be a volunteer leader, you pay the higher fee to register. Every parent should be able to observe any aspect of the program. I have no idea why BSA wants to charge all parents $45.

 

[DuctTape]

16 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

I don't want to belabor this point too much, but kids can be registered as scouts for upwards of 12 years.  Attend a pack campout when your kid is in second grade, 6PM Friday night through noon on Sunday is 42 hours.  So if you want to go on the same campout next year you're over the 72 hours and need to register.  Finesse the hours a little and maybe you don't have to register until your kid is in fourth grade, but at that point you need to remain a registered leader for another eight years, or never camp with your kid again.  

Even if you reset when you crossover to ScoutsBSA, you're talking about 1 1/2 campouts and then you're obligated to remain registered for more than half a decade.  So for instance, you're a big skier, and you're really only interested in helping the troop for the annual ski trip, that's 7 years worth of registration, fees, and training, for one campout a year.

The reset is per event.

[mrjohns2]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:42 PM, T2Eagle said:

I don't want to belabor this point too much, but kids can be registered as scouts for upwards of 12 years.  Attend a pack campout when your kid is in second grade, 6PM Friday night through noon on Sunday is 42 hours.  So if you want to go on the same campout next year you're over the 72 hours and need to register.  Finesse the hours a little and maybe you don't have to register until your kid is in fourth grade, but at that point you need to remain a registered leader for another eight years, or never camp with your kid again.  

Even if you reset when you crossover to ScoutsBSA, you're talking about 1 1/2 campouts and then you're obligated to remain registered for more than half a decade.  So for instance, you're a big skier, and you're really only interested in helping the troop for the annual ski trip, that's 7 years worth of registration, fees, and training, for one campout a year.

No, the 72 hours is one activity. The "not continuous" part means you can't leave and come back to reset the clock. Units may be more strict, but that is the rule as national sees it.

[T2Eagle]

43 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

No, the 72 hours is one activity. The "not continuous" part means you can't leave and come back to reset the clock. Units may be more strict, but that is the rule as national sees it.

Yes, I was responding to the idea that anyone not willing to register after 72 hours of contact should be looked at with askance.  My point is that 72 hours is a passingly small amount of time in the career of a scout, and that most parents would hit it before their kid would be fluent at long division. 

[awanatech]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:14 PM, T2Eagle said:

I don't quite understand what you mean here.  If a parent is also a leader, clearly they will be observing what happens with their child at a scout event because they'll be helping to run or at least guide the event itself.

As @malraux said, it's not exactly open to all parents being able to observe, if we are going to require parents to register as leaders in order to be able to observe.  Many parents have their own reasons for not registering as a leader. They should not be excluded from seeing what happens at their child's scout events.

[awanatech]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:10 PM, yknot said:

It ought to be every participatory parent (meaning you attend things with your kid) takes YPT, submits to a background check, and the parent pays the (typically nominal) fee. If you want to go on and be a volunteer leader, you pay the higher fee to register. Every parent should be able to observe any aspect of the program. I have no idea why BSA wants to charge all parents $45.

 

I believe the part in bold is, at least partially, why BSA wants every adult to be registered. $45/ adult starts to add up pretty quickly.

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 hours ago, awanatech said:

I believe the part in bold is, at least partially, why BSA wants every adult to be registered. $45/ adult starts to add up pretty quickly.

So here's one for you...can registered MB counselors attend unit events in excess of 72 hours?  For example, if your unit wants to do a 5-day backpacking trip for Backpacking MB, can you invite the counselor along for the trip??

Even though they are registered members of the BSA, and have had their background checks...the answer is "No", as they are not registered leaders in the unit.  That is the key point...anyone over 72 hours must be registered with that unit.  Or, to put a finer point on it, they must have a registration approved by a Chartering Org...

OK, so, what if you get your CO's approval to bring the MB counselor with you...could you bypass the payment requirement, as long as they are a registered BSA member?

I'd say absolutely "Yes!"  The spirit of the rule rather than the letter...

And how does that jibe with the new model of having the council charter units? 

 

[mrjohns2]

10 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Even though they are registered members of the BSA, and have had their background checks...the answer is "No", as they are not registered leaders in the unit. 

I have heard that some councils have that rule, but that is not what the text says. It just says registered leaders. "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive."

[T2Eagle]

11 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

OK, so, what if you get your CO's approval to bring the MB counselor with you...could you bypass the payment requirement, as long as they are a registered BSA member?

 

I agree with Mrjohns that that's not the rule, unless your council is locally imposing it.  

Even if they do impose that there would be no additional cost.  You can "multiple" register with multiple units, but you pay only one egistratin fee.

[elitts]

13 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I have heard that some councils have that rule, but that is not what the text says. It just says registered leaders. "All adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as leaders. The 72 hours need not be consecutive."

If there is a Council officially advertising that as a rule, I bet they aren't actually implementing it since it effectively eliminates the ability to have OA or Council contingents to HA bases or Summer Camps.  I hope it's just yet another instance of some Council Commissioner or DE misunderstanding a rule and giving bad explanations.  (Like the Commissioner I heard telling a group at a Roundtable that if you must have 2 different bathrooms available any time there are females along.  Even if the bathroom in question is a single person, individually locking stall)