johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 12 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: Then add uniforms, gear, fuel, food costs, training, time, heartache, etc., and the price tag can be about $1000 per year easily... Are the uniforms a requirement for registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said: Are the uniforms a requirement for registration? Uniforming is only a tool, and even on the youth level NOT required. The units can choose their "uniform", and it does not have to be a class A type, in reality. We hark back to the days when the majority of units likely had little more than a neckerchief, and makeshift bits and pieces. Scouts were encouraged to save to earn a uniform. But, few early units would have been able to pose as a group in the recognized "uniform" of the period. While we encourage a complete uniform, and we have a substantial closet, we are sort of a waist up unit, as the youth outgrown pants far too quickly, and while we have shorts and such in the closet, the sizes are a challenge for older scouts especially. Many Scout groups around the world are similar, in that they have that absolute minimum of a necherchief over a simple shirt, often withouth any patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Random and macro-level observation that you all know: This is bloody complicated. Executing something relatively straightforward, built around a few core principles, is now a veritable maze. I don’t mean YPT, because I think it’s critical and requires improvement in key notable areas. The lack of transparency and connection to the straightforward design and application of the core principles by National has become a a magnifying glass on the ant running the maze. I think I now better understand why the org chart needs to be flattened on top, as well as flipped on its head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, skeptic said: Uniforming is only a tool, and even on the youth level NOT required. The units can choose their "uniform", and it does not have to be a class A type, in reality. We hark back to the days when the majority of units likely had little more than a neckerchief, and makeshift bits and pieces. Scouts were encouraged to save to earn a uniform. But, few early units would have been able to pose as a group in the recognized "uniform" of the period. While we encourage a complete uniform, and we have a substantial closet, we are sort of a waist up unit, as the youth outgrown pants far too quickly, and while we have shorts and such in the closet, the sizes are a challenge for older scouts especially. Many Scout groups around the world are similar, in that they have that absolute minimum of a necherchief over a simple shirt, often withouth any patches. If adult registration is only $50 and it includes a background check and maybe I need to buy a T-shirt and I would be allowed to go to all of the campouts no matter how long they last, be assured that every other adult that is there has had a background, plus it includes insurance then it should be a requirement for even 1 hour at a campsite. Edited December 8, 2021 by johnsch322 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ThenNow said: Ok. So, what about a parent who wants to register so they are able to hang out at camp, but can’t/doesn’t care to invest the additional bucks? Parents can hang out at all the 2 day and 2.95 day camps. It's when a single camp is 72 hours long or the parent stays cumulatively at that event for 72 hours. Cost ... I don't see much of a solution. I know some game it by registering as MBCs. It is significantly cheaper. Free. Most should register as committee members. I say that as having a parent hang-out at camp but register as an ASM causes issues as they are direct-involvement role. They need to be in-sync and coordinated with SM. Sometimes it's better to have parents hang-out with other adults and let scouts be scouts. Only a few SM/ASM should be directly interacting with the scouts. Edited December 8, 2021 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, johnsch322 said: If adult registration is only $50 and it includes a background check and maybe I need to buy a T-shirt and I would be allowed to go to all of the campouts no matter how long they last, be assured that every other adult that is there has had a background, plus it includes insurance then it should be a requirement for even 1 hour at a campsite. Rates vary from council to council. While the national fee is fixed, councils can add their own fees as well up to an equal amount of the national fee. So whereas Malreaux and Inquisitive Scouter are paying $50, mine is closer to $90. That on top of two boys at $107 each, and and I am paying over $300 in registration alone. While some may say it is cheap, for many in my neck of the woods, including myself, it is a lot. Combine with the additional expenses: summer camp, food, gas, equipment, etc, and I am slowly being priced out of Scouting. Part of me is glad Oldest is not continuing as an ASM, because it would be right at $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: Rates vary from council to council. There should only be one registration fee for parents who want to observe. $50 would be reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, johnsch322 said: There should only be one registration fee for parents who want to observe. $50 would be reasonable. That is not reasonable for everyone. Are parents charged for attending little league practices and games? Edited December 8, 2021 by Eagle94-A1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: That is not reasonable for everyone. Are parents charged for attending little league practices and games? That is an absurd analogy. At little league practice and games you sit in bleachers and the players are on a field. $50 to be able to camp with your child and includes a background check and insurance is a bargain. About the same cost for cell phone service that is paid every month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2Eagle Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) To help everyone be clear, the $50 is every year. For some perspective, my Catholic Diocese charges $25 every couple years to cover the cost of the background check necessary to be a scouter or a CYO coach. I have no idea for either organization how much of that is paid directly to the backgrounding company, how much is calculated to be direct cost for administering and reviewing the background process, or how much is charged to overhead. But I would guess that the $25 -- $50 range is probably pretty much the cost any organization is going to have to charge to carry out a similar process. I posted this earlier, but I'll review it. Our Troop and Pack do a joint weekend every year, we usually have about 45 Cubs, and that means an equal number of parents attend. If we had to tack on $50 per parent to attend, on top of the $20 we already charge, that would crater attendance. Similarly, if a parent with only a passing interest in getting involved just wants to go on a campout one time or once a year with their 11-12 year old to see what's going on, an additional $50 is just going to get them to skip it. It seems easily intuitive to me that discouraging easy access by parents to campouts and outings is not going to make things safer, and would probably make things at least marginally less safe. At the same time, my understanding of how the vast and overwhelming amount of abuse comes about is from repeated contact and at least some amount of grooming or isolating, and that the vast majority of abusers are not actually going to have a prior history of arrest and conviction for abuse. So background checks for a once year participant would be expected to catch a miniscule number of abusers and prevent an even more miniscule amount of abuse. Edited December 8, 2021 by T2Eagle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, T2Eagle said: To help everyone be clear, the $50 is every year. For some perspective, my Catholic Diocese charges $25 every couple years to cover the cost of the background check necessary to be a scouter or a CYO coach. I have no idea for either organization how much of that is paid directly to the backgrounding company, how much is calculated to be direct cost for administering and reviewing the background process, or how much is charged to overhead. But I would guess that the $25 -- $50 range is probably pretty much the cost any organization is going to have to charge to carry out a similar process. I posted this earlier, but I'll review it. Our Troop and Pack do a joint weekend every year, we usually have about 45 Cubs, and that means an equal number of parents attend. If we had to tack on $50 per parent to attend, on top of the $20 we already charge, that would crater attendance. Similarly, if a parent with only a passing interest in getting involved just wants to go on a campout one time or once a year with their 11-12 year old to see what's going on, an additional $50 is just going to get them to skip it. It seems easily intuitive to me that discouraging easy access by parents to campouts and outings is not going to make things safer, and would probably make things at least marginally less safe. At the same time, my understanding of how the vast and overwhelming amount of abuse comes about is from repeated contact and at least some amount of grooming or isolating, and that the vast majority of abusers are not actually going to have a prior history of arrest and conviction for abuse. So background checks for a once year participant would be expected to catch a miniscule number of abusers and prevent an even more miniscule amount of abuse. I have stated this before...my daughter was in girl scouts in Canada while we lived there. We had to pay $50 to get a clearance check before my wife could go on an overnight with my daughter. We gladly went to the RCMP filled out the paperwork and paid the $50. There was no exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Just now, johnsch322 said: I have stated this before...my daughter was in girl scouts in Canada while we lived there. We had to pay $50 to get a clearance check before my wife could go on an overnight with my daughter. We gladly went to the RCMP filled out the paperwork and paid the $50. There was no exceptions. And as I have stated before, not everyone has the financial resources to be in Scouting as prices climb. I do not know your financial situation, but we have folks who qualify as Lower Class in my unit. Right Now I have 1 definite Scout who is dropping due to the increases, and I may have more. I will be trying to figure out how to help them remain. If $50 is not a big deal to you, I would gladly accept a donation to help cover a Scout's dues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, T2Eagle said: At the same time, my understanding of how the vast and overwhelming amount of abuse comes about is from repeated contact and at least some amount of grooming or isolating, and that the vast majority of abusers are not actually going to have a prior history of arrest and conviction for abuse. This is one of the several black holes that exist in my ongoing review of YP and YPT. BSA won’t cough up the data or metrics specific to the history of child sexual abuse in Scouting and the full context of all abuse since the implementation and improvements. For example, I’d like to know the full story on the shower camera predator from all sides of the equation. It would help a ton in understanding his vetting, access, supervision or lack thereof, recorded dicey history, anyone ever suspect or notice odd behavior, and etc. It seems like common sense for these things to be made available to LCs, Units, COs and parents. No? Edited December 8, 2021 by ThenNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said: If $50 is not a big deal to you, I would gladly accept a donation to help cover a Scout's dues. Give me background on who it will go to and an address and I will gladly double that. Edited December 8, 2021 by johnsch322 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, johnsch322 said: Give me background on who it will go to and an address and I will gladly double that. Same. So we don’t go to far into swapping names and addresses, maybe a mechanism to keep it on the downlow, too. Edited December 8, 2021 by ThenNow 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts