Armymutt Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Our pack meeting is Tuesday and we are now at the point where we start awarding adventure loops. We announced at the beginning of summer that dues need to be paid in order for the pack to be able to purchase awards. We have a family who has not paid. They are not new to the unit, and in fact their Scout has been with us for 4 years. Our finances are so screwy from the past two treasurers that we don't even know if they paid a cent toward recharter. The sold no popcorn this year. The awards are being purchased tomorrow. I don't want there to be a scene at the pack meeting when their Scout doesn't receive an award, but it is not fair to every other family that has paid. What would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wëlënakwsu Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Give the Cub her/his award(s) on Tuesday. It's too late to do otherwise. Then get your records in order... unless their are extenuating circumstance: Give non payers a reminder after a set time and if no payment thereafter... "cut them off/out" after an established time period. I wouldn't worry too much... perhaps this family's payment due records are as 'screwy' as the Packs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted October 25, 2021 Author Share Posted October 25, 2021 Considering dues didn't come into existence until August, there is no chance that the records are wrong. Being the person who covered all of last year's awards with no repayment, I'm loathe to continue the trend. Giving the Scout their award takes the money from other Scouts, meaning they will have to do without later on. Our dues have no padding to them - we have factored in the cost of each item and the tax. If someone gets something for nothing, then someone else will miss out down the line. They didn't even offer to pay anything toward the blue and gold or rank advancement ceremony last spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Call them and say if they want to go home with the awards tomorrow they need to come with a check or cash to give you to cover what is owed. If they can't do that, tell them you'll hand their son an empty envelope so that he is at least verbally recognized and when they get the money together, you'll get the awards to them. You don't ever want to publicly shame a kid because his parents didn't pay. Normally I would say treat them as a scholarship case but if you have already been fronting personal money to keep the pack going, then you can't take that on too. I don't know what their financial situation is but in some states Medicaid subsidizes certain youth memberships. I'm pretty sure scouting is one of them. Others on here may remember or know more than me. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 19 hours ago, Armymutt said: What would you do? I would not make a scene. Is it possible they don't have the money? Or maybe it's something else that's completely innocuous. I would talk to them, privately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDW5332 Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Are you (OP) the Advancement Chair? Have you brought this up to the Committee or the COR / IH? If it's a matter of the family not having the funds to continue in Scouting, perhaps some sweat equity might help offset some of the costs - helping set up for the derbies or Blue & Gold, flipping pancakes at the pancake breakfast. In our pack, we had left those types of decisions up to the Committee with input from the COR / IH. Sometimes you just can't sell any popcorn no matter how hard you try. But if your dues have no padding to them, that might be something else worth looking at with your Pack's treasurer. I get that most Cubs will barely earn their rank and nothing more, but some are particularly motivated (and some have Den Leaders that will do their jobs and show their Cubs everything that Scouting has to offer and then some) and will go out of their way for the Outdoor Activity award, the shooting sports awards, a religious emblem, a Summertime Pack award, World Conservation award, and the STEM/NOVA awards. Oh, and they speak Greek at home - an Interpreter Strip. They get a buddy to join the Pack - a Recruiter patch. Typically the dues of the many will offset the multitude of awards and bling of the few, but some years there are exceptions. And some years, particularly when things are tight, you find out you need a new pinewood derby track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted October 26, 2021 Author Share Posted October 26, 2021 I talked to the dad. It's not a matter of not having the money, but more of a lack of just doing it. He said he'll bring it to the meeting, so I picked up the pins. The committee is firm on the pay to play. It may be difficult to sell popcorn no matter how hard you try, but first, you actually have to try. Very little gets sold if you don't try to sell any. We set our dues so that the kids are able to get all of the required items, have a PWD and B&G, and still be able to afford Scouting. Between the national and council fees plus insurance, the program is expensive as it is. Add in a uniform and the price goes up. We rely on the sweat equity of selling popcorn to fund things and it's really insulting to all the kids who worked hard when those who can't pay also won't attempt to contribute in some manner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elitts Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 (edited) With my old pack we ended up finding that being flexible on how things got paid helped a lot. We ended up allowing Paypal (they pay the fee) or Venmo or Cash App (I think the treasurer just collected payment and then transferred it to the troop). Once we did that, it helped a ton. There's a lot of people for whom just remembering to bring the checkbook or cash is the biggest issue. Also, think about a better fundraiser. My pack used to sell christmas wreaths. We bought them for $11, sold them for $20. And we sold about 1100 per year. I did put together a prize package for the kids and we had a roller skating pizza party for everyone who sold. (though everyone was invited in the end) I think my expenses ran to about $1200 off our $9900 profit. My troop has also had good luck with selling Lilys for Easter. Edited October 26, 2021 by elitts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 18 hours ago, Armymutt said: I talked to the dad. It's not a matter of not having the money, but more of a lack of just doing it. He said he'll bring it to the meeting, so I picked up the pins. The committee is firm on the pay to play. It may be difficult to sell popcorn no matter how hard you try, but first, you actually have to try. Very little gets sold if you don't try to sell any. We set our dues so that the kids are able to get all of the required items, have a PWD and B&G, and still be able to afford Scouting. Between the national and council fees plus insurance, the program is expensive as it is. Add in a uniform and the price goes up. We rely on the sweat equity of selling popcorn to fund things and it's really insulting to all the kids who worked hard when those who can't pay also won't attempt to contribute in some manner. A few points that are about setting expectations: Since you talked to the dad and money apparently is not an issue, I'd give him a firm date, before the awards are presented, that the money is due. If you don't get it in time then call the dad and let him know so he doesn't bring his child, and don't award the bling. Is it understood that scouts must sell popcorn? If not then you shouldn't hold it against the scout or family when they don't sell any. All I'm saying is make the expectations clear. And then follow through. I've seen adults drive themselves crazy not being clear or consistent. I'm not saying don't try to understand when a family has a problem because your rules are strict, but being clear about expectations will make it easier for you to be helpful when needed. You won't be angry. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 You don't have to sell popcorn. You just don't get the benefits from the work of others either. The first part of a Scout's commission goes toward fees and dues. Anything left can be used toward camp, activities, uniforms, books, camping gear, etc - stuff needed for Scouting. At the end of the year, the balance reverts to the Pack fund. We made it quite clear prior to popcorn sales that this is how it would be. Parents were given ample opportunity to sign up for shifts - only 19% were claimed. We aren't trying to establish a huge pack fund. We ordered enough popcorn to give everyone enough sales to fund their program. When people didn't sign up, the rest of us signed up for extra shifts to prevent us being stuck with popcorn. Consequently, some Scouts have a large credit and some have none. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDW5332 Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/26/2021 at 7:33 PM, Armymutt said: We made it quite clear prior to popcorn sales that this is how it would be. Parents were given ample opportunity to sign up for shifts - only 19% were claimed. We aren't trying to establish a huge pack fund. We ordered enough popcorn to give everyone enough sales to fund their program. When people didn't sign up, the rest of us signed up for extra shifts to prevent us being stuck with popcorn. Consequently, some Scouts have a large credit and some have none. I don't know what kind of area you live in, if it's economically disadvantaged, blue collar, or affluent, but it looks like you've possibly set up a haves vs. have-nots type situation, where if you or your Scout don't sell the popcorn your Scout doesn't get the rewards for their achievements. Having served as a Pack Committee Chair and Cubmaster myself, I know the difficulties of dealing with families not paying dues and also not being able to sell popcorn and how it impacts overall Pack finances and relationships with Council. If only 19% of the shifts for selling popcorn were claimed, did you look into the root cause why the other 81% were not? Did the times conflict with parents' work schedules or the Scouts' school schedules? Were the show-n-sell locations too far away for some? As bad as this sounds, were some of those that did sign up "one of those families" that cause issues for others and no one wanted to sell with them? (We had that happen - not fun as a Committee Chair to sort out.) Do you have an on-line sale option for the Scouts and families? I'll echo what elitts said upthread: Have you considered fundraising opportunities outside of popcorn? From my experience Scouting Popcorn has traditionally been in the Fall and competes for dollars and time with many other organizations such as marching bands (wreath sales or mums), VFW (pull tabs and poppies), KofC (Tootsie Rolls), club Football and other Fall sports (usually candy), high school extra curricular clubs (Manna or Scrip gift cards). Even our school's PTO gets into the game and wants families to go to a certain restaurant on a certain evening and they will get a percentage of the sales for the night. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted November 2, 2021 Author Share Posted November 2, 2021 On 10/29/2021 at 11:41 AM, NDW5332 said: I don't know what kind of area you live in, if it's economically disadvantaged, blue collar, or affluent, but it looks like you've possibly set up a haves vs. have-nots type situation, where if you or your Scout don't sell the popcorn your Scout doesn't get the rewards for their achievements. Having served as a Pack Committee Chair and Cubmaster myself, I know the difficulties of dealing with families not paying dues and also not being able to sell popcorn and how it impacts overall Pack finances and relationships with Council. If only 19% of the shifts for selling popcorn were claimed, did you look into the root cause why the other 81% were not? Did the times conflict with parents' work schedules or the Scouts' school schedules? Were the show-n-sell locations too far away for some? As bad as this sounds, were some of those that did sign up "one of those families" that cause issues for others and no one wanted to sell with them? (We had that happen - not fun as a Committee Chair to sort out.) Do you have an on-line sale option for the Scouts and families? I'll echo what elitts said upthread: Have you considered fundraising opportunities outside of popcorn? From my experience Scouting Popcorn has traditionally been in the Fall and competes for dollars and time with many other organizations such as marching bands (wreath sales or mums), VFW (pull tabs and poppies), KofC (Tootsie Rolls), club Football and other Fall sports (usually candy), high school extra curricular clubs (Manna or Scrip gift cards). Even our school's PTO gets into the game and wants families to go to a certain restaurant on a certain evening and they will get a percentage of the sales for the night. Schedules - the location was exclusive to us. If a parent's schedule doesn't allow them to spend some time with their kid between 0600 and 2000 M,W,Th, F, S, or S, I don't know what else I can do. No one I know works 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. Tues night is our meeting, but they could sell on Tuesday day. Further, all someone had to do was ask for popcorn to sell and it would be delivered - we didn't require anyone to come all the way out to our house to get popcorn, the table, or banner. I live the furthest out from our selling location, so that's not a valid excuse. There were no families selling with other families by design. Small area to sell - didn't need a bunch of parents crowded behind a 5 foot table. My wife and I both work full time and still managed to surrender our weekends in order to get the popcorn sold. Our next fundraiser is camp cards. We didn't have a good handle on them last year and many didn't sell. We're going to try to do storefront sales of them. Depending on what businesses are on them, I'll try to target those locations. For a $5 card, the bearer gets a bunch of $5 coupons and the pack gets $2.50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) On 10/26/2021 at 7:33 PM, Armymutt said: You don't have to sell popcorn. You just don't get the benefits from the work of others either. Pack fundraisers are to help everyone in the pack. You can give them 20% (or similar) of their sales as an incentive, but the fundraiser's whole purpose is to reduce the cost for everyone doing work in the pack. The whole fundraiser / dues / cost is something that's been discussed ad nauseum. Key point is non-profit fundraising serves the purpose of the non-profit. Individual sales can benefit individual, but then there is a different question. Generally, pack sales are usually smaller than IRS noise level. I mention as charge dues is fine. But don't consider fundraiser sales as a plus/minus on whether to buy awards. Edited November 2, 2021 by fred8033 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armymutt Posted November 2, 2021 Author Share Posted November 2, 2021 I agree it is for the pack, but everyone needs to contribute to the wellbeing of the pack. How is it fair for one Scout to work hard selling the product we ordered, while another does nothing? Our pack fund get used to buy items of use to the entire pack, not just individuals. For example, we need a new flag. We also have no pack cooking equipment or loaner tents. With the exception of 2 families, our entire pack is either active duty military, former military, or worked with the military for a long time. Our organizational culture is that Scouts pay their own way. Right now, we are rebuilding from a mismanaged system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) I was just saying ... don't mix involvement in fundraiser with buying advancement items. The real test is: are they a member of the pack? If yes, the pack buys the advancements ... UNLESS you charge back to each scout their advancement tokens. I've only see that for EXTRA tokens. One pack did it for belt loops. Pack bought rank and core advancement. Other things the pack expected families to purchase as there would always be one or two families running up the costs. The whole idea of fundraisers is to benefit the organization and the organization's goals; not just those raising the funds. ... Not everyone will be as committed as others ... you will always have some doing more ... paying more ... covering more costs ... etc .... Sales are a great for a scout to pay his own way. So is mowing yards. Doing chores for neighbors. etc. ... Likewise, it is 100% acceptable for a pack to help scouts sell products that they then get the income to pay their way thru scouting. ... Just don't call it fundraiser. Don't do it in the non-profit's name. Absolutely don't call it tax deduction. What our troop did ... years ago ... we charged $75 dues. We gave 15% of the profit back to the scout. Wreaths were 50% profit. If the scout sold $1000 in wreaths, that paid for his dues. Troop got $425 to help everyone. Scout got $75 to pay dues. Fundraiser workers are often paid as an incentive to raise more for the non-profit. That is acceptable. BUT if 100% is going to the scout, it's not a fundraiser. It's private benefit in the name of a non-profit. ... this forum has been thru this debate many times. Edited November 2, 2021 by fred8033 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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