Former Youth Protection Director on the dangers in Scouts BSA

[Eagle1970]

8 hours ago, ThenNow said:

This is part of the challenge we face. When you see the aged faces, presentation, intelligence and personalities of some of the men who were abused as children while in Scouting, it’s easy to forget each was once just little boy. Some not so little, but still boys. Think of a vulnerable 10 year old you know who has a passel of siblings, is maybe a middle child, his dad is unavailable both emotionally and as to his time. Mom is chasing other kids. He is smart and eager, but has no mentor. See him? That’s me. My SM groomed me from the first second he met me. Pick another. Young man with athletic ability. Father died young. He and his mom are hurting and vulnerable. Both could use assistance with this gaping hole in their lives and they chose Scouting. There, a monster finds him and preys upon him and his mother. That’s a friend of mine.

I am fairly emotionally astute and have something of a pain and trauma radar. I can often see the child in someone that has long since faded from physical view. In Wilmington at that TCC selection process, I saw a room full of scared and angry boys wanting someone to take the time to see and hear them. It was heartbreaking. David Buchbinder, of the US Trustee’s Office, said after selection that picking the 9 members of the BSA TCC was the hardest thing he’s ever had to do. I believe him. He heard from 80-100 (?) deeply wounded boys that day. All day long. One after the other after the other.

If we only knew then, what we know now.  My abuser told me that I seemed like a boy who needed extra attention, which (at that time) I viewed as a compliment and gladly accepted.  Had I known what I later learned, I would have punched him instead.

[ThenNow]

16 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

If we only knew then, what we know now.  My abuser told me that I seemed like a boy who needed extra attention, which (at that time) I viewed as a compliment and gladly accepted.  Had I known what I later learned, I would have punched him instead.

Yup. Same script, different actors. “I hear you have leadership potential…I’m going to let you join early,” followed by an affirming, lingering pat on the noggin.

[PeterHopkins]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:55 AM, Eagle1993 said:

72 hour rule .. if BSA didn't follow their Youth Protection expert, why?  It would be good to see their internal discussions.  My guess is upsetting volunteers which probably won't look good.

I can take a guess as to why (which doesn't make it the right decision). Tigers would not be able to attend resident camp unless they had a registered (and background checked) parent with them.

[PeterHopkins]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:55 AM, Eagle1993 said:

50% of abuse is from other youth ... that has started to be an increased focus, but I don't know if BSA ever made this public.  Also, some scouting orgs do not have 11 year olds in the same program as 17 year olds.  We have discussed this and I wonder if BSA had internal meetings.

This surprised me more than anything else in the letter. In recent versions of Youth Protection Training, youth-on-youth abuse is addressed, but it is not emphasized. Twenty years ago, I don't recall the subject being included in Youth Protection Training. If this is really true, this is something important that those who complete YPT should have known. It should have been emphasized to such an extent as to have made it unforgettable.

[PeterHopkins]

On 10/12/2021 at 10:18 AM, Eagle1993 said:

That is how our GSUSA Troops do it.  There is 0% chance I can be near the kids without registering.

My Girl Scout troop as well. Adults cannot even drive children other than their own without being registered and background checked.

[PeterHopkins]

1 hour ago, PeterHopkins said:

Tigers would not be able to attend resident camp unless they had a registered (and background checked) parent with them.

I meant to say camp other than resident camp. In other words, Tigers would need to have a registered parent to go on a pack overnighter.

I'm assuming Johnson thinks there's no reason for the 72-hour rule and that it should apply to all overnighters.

For Cubs older than Tigers, it would come as a surprise to parents to learn they cannot attend, unless they register.

The whole system breaks down after that. Many councils have tighter youth-adult ratios than the Guide to Safe Scouting requires. Packs probably could not get over the hurdle without registering all their parents.

[Armymutt]

44 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:

I meant to say camp other than resident camp. In other words, Tigers would need to have a registered parent to go on a pack overnighter.

I'm assuming Johnson thinks there's no reason for the 72-hour rule and that it should apply to all overnighters.

For Cubs older than Tigers, it would come as a surprise to parents to learn they cannot attend, unless they register.

The whole system breaks down after that. Many councils have tighter youth-adult ratios than the Guide to Safe Scouting requires. Packs probably could not get over the hurdle without registering all their parents.

Since Cub Scouting can be completed without camping 1 night, we always require every Cub Scout to have a parent or guardian present.  Consequently, we have a Scout to adult ratio around 1:1 to 1.5:1.  I know the rules say Cub Scouts should have a parent and Tigers must, but no one wants to babysit someone else's kid.

[MYCVAStory]

5 hours ago, PeterHopkins said:

This surprised me more than anything else in the letter. In recent versions of Youth Protection Training, youth-on-youth abuse is addressed, but it is not emphasized. Twenty years ago, I don't recall the subject being included in Youth Protection Training. If this is really true, this is something important that those who complete YPT should have known. It should have been emphasized to such an extent as to have made it unforgettable.

Don't know if you saw the last TCC Town Hall.  Kennedy took the online YPT training and besides it saying that 25% of abuse is youth-on-youth, when the former head of Youth Protection who has seen the reports says it's actually 50%, he was allowed to take the test and get his YPT certificate without completing an entire module on bullying.  I'm just tired of shaking my head over the constant breakdowns in youth protection.  "$h*t happens" isn't good enough when it comes to the safety of the nation's youth.

[PeterHopkins]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:05 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Does Johnson's presser yesterday affect anyone's thoughts on remaining affiliated with BSA until more of these changes are manifested?

I'm catching up after a very busy work week and participating in Jamboree on the Internet over the weekend.

The thought has crossed my mind.

[PeterHopkins]

9 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Don't know if you saw the last TCC Town Hall.  Kennedy took the online YPT training and besides it saying that 25% of abuse is youth-on-youth, when the former head of Youth Protection who has seen the reports says it's actually 50%, he was allowed to take the test and get his YPT certificate without completing an entire module on bullying.

I did not see the TCC Town Hall.

I'm even more upset that they may have known youth-on-youth abuse was greater than 50% but lied about it in the training material.

I'm currently a Cubmaster, but I spent most of the decade of the 2000s as a Scoutmaster and the rest as an ASM. It would have been nice to know that.

I also facilitated several live-instruction YPT courses during the 2000s, using the approved materials.

I just checked to make sure the bullying module is required, and it is. Typically, I've seen technology issues with people completing all the modules but being unable to generate the certificate. Either way, it indicates the technology is problematic.

 

[mrjohns2]

5 hours ago, PeterHopkins said:

My Girl Scout troop as well. Adults cannot even drive children other than their own without being registered and background checked.

Except Girl Scouts is much looser about sleeping arrangements...

 

[PeterHopkins]

On 10/13/2021 at 11:23 AM, Eagle1970 said:

I'm trying to find the Eagle requirements from 1973 so I can determine if I otherwise earned it.

Eagle Scout Requirements 1970-1971

Earn 21 merit badges, including the following 11:

• Camping
• Citizenship in the Community
• Citizenship in the Nation
• Conservation of Natural Resources
• Cooking
• First Aid
• Lifesaving
• Nature
• Personal Fitness
• Safety
• Swimming

While a Life Scout, serve actively for 6 months as a troop warrant officer (patrol leader, senior patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, junior assistant scoutmaster, instructor, scribe, quartermaster, librarian, den chief)

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and carry out a service project helpful to your church or synagogue, school, or community

Take part in a Scoutmaster Conference (includes living up to Scout Promise, Law, Motto, and Slogan)

Eagle Scout Requirements 1972-1975

Be active as a Life Scout for at least 6 months

Show Scout spirit

Earn 24 merit badges, including the following 10:

• First Aid
• Citizenship in the Community
• Citizenship in the Nation
• Citizenship in the World
• Communications
• Safety
• Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving
• Environmental Science
• Personal Management
• Personal Fitness OR Swimming OR Sports

While a Life Scout, serve actively for 6 months in one of the following positions: patrol leader, junior assistant scoutmaster, scribe, den chief, quartermaster, librarian, member of the leadership corps, senior patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, or instructor.

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and carry out a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or town.

Take part in a Personal Growth Agreement Conference.

[PeterHopkins]

4 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Since Cub Scouting can be completed without camping 1 night, we always require every Cub Scout to have a parent or guardian present.  Consequently, we have a Scout to adult ratio around 1:1 to 1.5:1.  I know the rules say Cub Scouts should have a parent and Tigers must, but no one wants to babysit someone else's kid.

It is rare nowadays that a parent wants his or her Cub Scout to camp without being there. But we would consider letting a Cub Scout camp without one on a case by case basis. However, our council does not allow it at its camps. So, the circumstances would have to highly unusual.

I recall in the distant past that I, young/middle aged, a gentleman in his early 60s and an 18-year old took about 12 Cub Scouts to a resident camp for six nights.. None of their parents were there. That doesn't happen anymore.

[T2Eagle]

For those not currently in the program, here is some sense of how the 72 hour rule works. 

Our Pack and Troop have a joint weekend each year.  About 40+ Cubs.  This is a cabin campout, all YPT rules are followed: kids in one room adults in the other.  We have one cabin for scouts with dads and a smaller cabin, scouts with moms.  Most folks arrive Friday night and leave after campfire on Saturday. 

On the ScoutsBSA side, on weekend campouts we will sometimes have an unregistered parent camp with us.  This is always in addition to at least two and usually three or or four registered leaders.  Anyone who camps with us this way needs to complete both the BSA YPT and the Catholic Virtus YPT so they’re aware of our expectations and the rules.  We encourage parents to join us this way primarily so they can see how the program works and how we handle their scouts, and secondarily as a way to recruit new leaders – you see what we do, think it looks interesting, and take the next step to become a leader.

So it’s not the case that “virtually anyone” can camp with the scouts.  We’re talking about parents or guardians. 

If we have to go to background checks for everyone, backgrounding pretty much one parent for every Cub ever, I suppose we can make it work.  But I’m not sure how much safer that makes things.  My understanding is that these crimes are planned, not crimes of opportunity, and on top of that very few people actually are convicted of CSA and are then back on the street with their own kids.

[PeterHopkins]

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Except Girl Scouts is much looser about sleeping arrangements...

The GSUSA rules about sleeping arrangements are detailed and specific. Female adult leaders are not forbidden from sharing tents with the girls:

Sleeping Arrangements

On trips where male volunteers are part of the group, it is not appropriate for them to sleep in the same space as girl members. Always support and maintain an all-girl atmosphere for sleeping quarters. Men may participate only when separate sleeping quarters and bathrooms are available for their use. In some circumstances, such public venues as a museum or mall overnight with hundreds of girls, this type of accommodation may not be possible. If this is the case, men do not supervise girls in the sleeping area of the event and the adult-volunteer-to-girl ratio is adjusted accordingly.

Always avoid having men sleep in the same space as girls and women. An exception is made for family members during events such as parent-daughter or family overnights where one family may sleep together in an area specifically designated to accommodate families. Also please note the following:

• Each participant has her own bed. Parent/guardian permission must be obtained if girls are to share a bed.
• Girls and adults do not share a bed; however, some councils make exceptions for mothers and daughters.
• It is not mandatory that an adult sleep in the sleeping area (tent, cabin, or designated area) with the girls, but if an adult female does share the sleeping area, there should always be two unrelated adult females present.

If possible, men should have their own designated bathroom. If a unisex bathroom is used the door must have a working lock, or a system for notifying others that the bathroom is in use. This system should be reviewed and understood by all girls and adults.

Men should not have to walk through the girls’ sleeping area to get to the bathroom. When camping in tents or single room cabins, men must stay in a tent or a cabin that is separate from the girls or women.

During family or “he and me” events (in which girls share sleeping accommodations with men), ensure the sleeping details are clearly explained in a parent/guardian permission slip.

More than one family may use a tent or single-room cabin during these events only if both families agree.

In public venue overnights, such as museums or at malls, ask if there is a separate sleeping area and bathrooms for men. If no such area exists, designate an area out of the way or off to the side so that men are not sleeping alongside the girls.

For long-distance travel, men must have separate sleeping quarters and bathrooms away from girls. Each participant should have her own bed. If girls want to share a bed, they must obtain parent/guardian permission. Girls and adults may not share a bed, however, though some councils may make exceptions for mothers and daughters.

Women are not required to sleep in the sleeping area (for example, a tent or cabin) with girls, but if a woman does share the sleeping area, two unrelated women must always be present.