YPT Changes in TCC Proposal

[HelpfulTracks]

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yep. And remember: the BSA plans including NOTHING about how to prevent future abuse. The BSA had to be forced by the TCC to include these provisions.

That's why I am saying BSA still doesn't get it and still doesn't take YP seriously. They have convinced themselves they are perfect.

They are in for a court-ordered rude awakening.

Thanks again to the TCC.

BSA's youth protection program long predates, this bankruptcy, case or the formation of the TCC. 

[elitts]

5 hours ago, BAJ said:

It actually sounds like we agree more than disagree:

So I do disagree with your first sentence that this is seeking to set a bar at a point where no one is ever uncomfortable ever…

 

It's possible I read more into this line than you intended:

Quote

Doing that models sets an example that such a requirement or transaction is acceptable, and that it is ok to exclude people who aren’t comfortable doing it.  “Oh, ok, if you don’t want to do the ceremony in the loincloth that’s fine, you just will be part of the out group…. Don’t worry about the fact that the rest of your patrol are doing it.”

I read this to mean that you thought it would be unacceptable to just have a scout sit out of an event if they didn't wish to participate because of the clothing requirements and so the event just shouldn't happen.  The bold part is one of those things that would depend entirely on the tone of voice and sincerity.  (I understand you are using it sarcastically)  But I would find that statement to be just fine (except the "out group") part if it was made with actual compassion and an invitation to "come watch with the rest of us".

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

To be fair:

The plaintiffs attorneys goal is to secure as much damages as possible for their clients (others would say as much as possible within a timeframe).

To be fair, it is about more than money. The TCC (the 9 victims of child sexual abuse) could have simply sought that.

They didn't.

They insisted on putting in non-monetary provisions that will force BSA to report the amount of abuse in scouting TODAY.

It isn't just about the money.

And I say: bravo TCC! Stop the BSA from hiding the data.

Edited October 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

BSA's youth protection program long predates, this bankruptcy, case or the formation of the TCC. 

Not the data reporting.

Not the public disclosure.

If YPT is so great, why hide the data?

If YPT is so great, why not do what the Catholic Church has done and release the data?

Perhaps because it will show that the YP isn't as great at stopping child sexual abuse as BSA would have you think?

Edited October 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[HelpfulTracks]

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

So I have a challenge for @HelpfulTracks. Here, now, today, this minute: can you answer and of these three using ONLY resources available to the general public? Not any insider knowledge you may have.

• Who is the BSA board?
• Who is in charge of YP for BSA? Either paid professional, volunteer committee members, or both. I'll take any.
• How many occurrences/how prevalent is child sexual abuse in scouting today?

Show me how transparent and open BSA really is about child sexual abuse TODAY. Not in the past. TODAY.

Let's see if BSA learned any lessons other than "hide, hide, hide".

Nope, don't think that list exist in one easy place. Which many of us have complained about in the past, myself included. But if I did think it exist, I would probably tell you to "just Google it."

That said, the same is true for the vast majority of NFP's out there. So, I am not what that proves. 

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

That said, the same is true for the vast majority of NFP's out there.

Uh actually no. BSA is the first and only NFP I have seen that does NOT list its Board on its website.

I wonder why?

P.S. The "vast majority of NFP's out there" are not facing down 82,500 child sexual abuse claims. The only one comparable vaguely is the Catholic Church, and I can find their information for both the national and diocesean leadership on their respective websites.

BSA? Nope.

Hiding, hiding, hiding.

Edited October 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Uh actually no. BSA is the first and only NFP I have seen that does NOT list its Board on its website.

I wonder why?

P.S. The "vast majority of NFP's out there" are not facing down 82,500 child sexual abuse claims. The only one comparable vaguely is the Catholic Church, and I can find their information for both the national and diocesean leadership on their respective websites.

BSA? Nope.

Hiding, hiding, hiding.

This topic is all over the place.  That said, the BSA hasn’t listed it’s board for years … well before this bankruptcy.   I expect other reasons are driving that.  (I do agree that BSA should be listing their board). 

[HelpfulTracks]

3 hours ago, PeterHopkins said:

That being said, no other youth-serving organization has yet been identified to have this problem to the level the BSA has. We may someday find that this issue is far more prevalent in other organizations.

There are not many organizations the size of BSA to start with, so that is one thing. 4H, Boys & Girls Clubs, Girl Scouts come to mind. But they are organized and run differently that BSA (though I am not too familiar about how 4H works). 

Though, I have seen reports that the abuse rate is higher in sports teams and schools in general, it is still difficult to compare them to BSA has there are 1000's of the and each is on a much much smaller scale. 

I would guess, some do a fantastic job of youth protection and others do  miserable job. 

[BAJ]

27 minutes ago, elitts said:

I read this to mean that you thought it would be unacceptable to just have a scout sit out of an event if they didn't wish to participate because of the clothing requirements and so the event just shouldn't happen.

Partially — if the activity was rock climbing and the scout didn’t want to wear the safety harness, I am right there with you.  No problem — and I agree that hopefully group identification and the support of a healthy and functioning patrol might give a kid whose discomfort with the safety equipment was really because they were scared of rock climbing the impetus to try something they might not otherwise.  

But… if the situation is a partially clothed initiation to an honor society (i.e, the part it looks like we agree on), that’s different since that’s a case where the scout’s discomfort shouldn’t push them to sit out of an event.  And then it isn’t event that the event shouldn’t happen… just that ‘half naked’ shouldn’t be a requirement.  

[PeterHopkins]

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

There are not many organizations the size of BSA to start with, so that is one thing. 4H, Boys & Girls Clubs, Girl Scouts come to mind.

I am actually a GSUSA volunteer. There are background checks renewed every two years, but there is no specific youth protection training and no training at all that needs to be renewed on a continuous basis. The huge advantage GSUSA has in this realm is that the adult leaders are overwhelmingly female, and there is scant participation from fathers of the girls. When I attend monthly service unit meetings (roughly district roundtable equivalent), the attendees are typically 20 to 25 women and I. In the overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse cases, the perpetrators are male.

10 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Though, I have seen reports that the abuse rate is higher in sports teams and schools in general, it is still difficult to compare them to BSA has there are 1000's of the and each is on a much much smaller scale. 

Little League Baseball has a centralized parent organization. If abuse has taken place there on a wide scale, I would expect to see several class-action suits. The publicity would wreck their television contract with ESPN. The paucity of overnight trips in Little League Baseball means far less opportunity for evildoers to abuse children. That's true of all sports. So, if the abuse rate is truly higher, then Scouting has protected its youth much better, even if much better isn't really enough.

[johnsch322]

33 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

To be fair:

The plaintiffs attorneys goal is to secure as much damages as possible for their clients (others would say as much as possible within a timeframe).

BSA is trying to survive so it can continue to conduct programing for youth. 

So yes, both sides are trying to push the $$ amount in a direction that benefits them. 

Let’s be honest. BSA was afraid it wouldn’t survive if it had to go to court on all of the lawsuits it faced. So they then entered bankruptcy and even on their own volition asked claimants to come forward. That with the help of law firms has resulted in the claims being 82,500 (they were facing less than 300 when this started). The amount that BSA has come forward with though not substantial on its own is a higher percentage of net value than what the LC’s have come up with. The amount the LC’s have put forward is pathetic.  What is worse is the amount that they negotiated supposedly for the victims of fractions on the dollar from the insurance companies. The only reason they are doing this is to try to entice uninformed claimants with what sounds like (but isn’t) a substantial sum so they can get out of their obligations to survivors and their own bankruptcy hell. As a survivor in an open state with a tier one abuse to be looking at 57K as the award is pathetic. Shame shame BSA!!

[Eagle1993]

1 minute ago, PeterHopkins said:

I am actually a GSUSA volunteer. There are background checks renewed every two years, but there is no specific youth protection training and no training at all that needs to be renewed on a continuous basis. The huge advantage GSUSA has in this realm is that the adult leaders are overwhelmingly female, and there is scant participation from fathers of the girls. When I attend monthly service unit meetings (roughly district roundtable equivalent), the attendees are typically 20 to 25 women and I. In the overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse cases, the perpetrators are male.

Little League Baseball has a centralized parent organization. If abuse has taken place there on a wide scale, I would expect to see several class-action suits. The publicity would wreck their television contract with ESPN. The paucity of overnight trips in Little League Baseball means far less opportunity for evildoers to abuse children. That's true of all sports. So, if the abuse rate is truly higher, then Scouting has protected its youth much better, even if much better isn't really enough.

I volunteered for GSUSA and 100% agree.  I was told I could run cookie sales & I declined.  At overnights, I have never heard of a man attending.  I know one dad that attended an overnight and he had to sleep in his car in the parking lot far away from the girls.  

My son is also involved with NICA.  The adults go through training on youth protection and ensure 2 deep and no one on one. Overnights, parents attend and camp with their kids. 

BSA seems to be unique to have 11 - 13 year olds (the prime years of abuse) to be without parents camping with adult males.  I believe today we have appropriate YPT but I can see in the past why BSA could have a higher incident rate (in terms of youth hours per incident) than many other programs.  

[CynicalScouter]

25 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

The only reason they are doing this is to try to entice uninformed claimants with what sounds like (but isn’t) a substantial sum so they can get out of their obligations to survivors and their own bankruptcy hell.

This is as you note especially true with respect to local councils.

in the event this bankruptcy doesn’t work just looking at New York California and Hawaii/Guam we are looking at approximately 40 councils heading for bankruptcy just based on the number of lawsuits already filed against them in state courts. I would also guess a large percentage of councils in Arizona and New Jersey are probably two steps behind.

don’t anybody mistake what the local councils are trying to do as anything other than an effort to save their own skins for the least amount of money.

and you can argue that they are trying to go cheap in order to maintain scouting for current scouts but that doesn’t change the fact that by doing so they are short changing thousands if not tens of thousands of victims.

Arizona	Open
Arkansas	Open
California	Open
Colorado	Open
Guam	Open
Hawaii	Open
Louisiana	Open
Maine	Open
Montana	Open
New Jersey	Open
New York	Open
North Carolina	Open
Vermont	Open

[PeterHopkins]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I volunteered for GSUSA and 100% agree.  I was told I could run cookie sales & I declined.  At overnights, I have never heard of a man attending.  I know one dad that attended an overnight and he had to sleep in his car in the parking lot far away from the girls. 

I'm starting my fifth year of being active in my daughter's Girl Scout troop. I've only stayed on two overnights. Many of the Girl Scout volunteers make male volunteers feel very uncomfortable, if you're too involved and want to camp overnight. So, I usually just do a drop and run.

There's also a significant contingent within GSUSA that really does not want male co-leaders in troops. They want men to play a supporting role only. One of the reasons I have my daughter in both programs is because I believe girls can benefit greatly from something that is specifically designed for girls and has many great female mentors. So, I actually agree with that line of thinking. But the program suffers. I volunteered to lead Brownies a bit more than three years ago (when my daughter was a Daisy). Instead, they decided to name someone else as co-leader with responsibility for our Brownies. I guess it was about 10% of the time I substituted for her, when she traveled for business. The Brownie leader was consistently underprepared. We've had a rotating door of girls joining and leaving at that age level. Two years ago at this time, we had three third graders. Only one of those remains. The Brownie leader didn't do a single thing online during the pandemic. In the spring of 2020, the Brownie leader said she could no longer manage the responsibility. I decided not to volunteer. The girls we have at that level (now fifth-grade Juniors) have just been enduring chaos and getting shuffled from one interim troop leader to another. I stand by ready to substitute if needed.

Many of the women in Girl Scouting (certainly not all) don't even want to hear male opinions, and they will read anything a man says as mansplaining. So, I mostly keep quiet.

Now I know how female BSA adult volunteers felt in the old days... and maybe some still today.

[SiouxRanger]

7 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Let’s be honest. BSA was afraid it wouldn’t survive if it had to go to court on all of the lawsuits it faced. So they then entered bankruptcy and even on their own volition asked claimants to come forward. That with the help of law firms has resulted in the claims being 82,500 (they were facing less than 300 when this started). The amount that BSA has come forward with though not substantial on its own is a higher percentage of net value than what the LC’s have come up with. The amount the LC’s have put forward is pathetic.  What is worse is the amount that they negotiated supposedly for the victims of fractions on the dollar from the insurance companies. The only reason they are doing this is to try to entice uninformed claimants with what sounds like (but isn’t) a substantial sum so they can get out of their obligations to survivors and their own bankruptcy hell. As a survivor in an open state with a tier one abuse to be looking at 57K as the award is pathetic. Shame shame BSA!!

Absolutely agree 100%.

I am not an abuse survivor.  I am a child of Scouting, Cubs through Eagle. Philmont staff, father of 3 Eagles.  Scouting is my life and that of my family.

I stand appalled that this "principled" organization has failed to defend and protect children.  Children.  The defenseless.

For how many DECADES? (Longer than I have been alive at 7 of them.)

An organization with a "religious declaration" requirement.

"That which you do to the least of mine, you do to me."- Jesus.

How does one deny that idea?

 

My best friend only told me about 3 years ago of his abuse.  I had no idea.  I camped with him dozens and dozens of times during high school.  We had great times.  He seemed totally normal and balanced.  Only now do I learn he had weekly counseling for the last 55 years.

National BSA has betrayed the principles of the Scouting Movement-all the way to the bedrock of the Movement.  And betrayed all who believed.

And to avoid a moral accounting, it hides behind bankruptcy.

$57,000 for Tier 6 abuse in an open state is an insult.

$5.7 million is closer to a reasonable settlement amount.