What if scout camps got the money from the lawsuit?

[1980Scouter]

What if this was years before the lawsuit and the LC's seeing that many of them have tens of millions in cash, decided to update and repair all scout camps in use?

How great would that have been? There is no scout camp out there that could not use a few million dollars or more to get the camp in top condition. 

Then a well maintained camp would draw more use and make it more sustainable. 

 

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

What if this was years before the lawsuit and the LC's seeing that many of them have tens of millions in cash, decided to update and repair all scout camps in use?

How great would that have been? There is no scout camp out there that could not use a few million dollars or more to get the camp in top condition. 

Then a well maintained camp would draw more use and make it more sustainable.

Here are some cold, hard, non-bankruptcy facts about the camps.

1. BSA membership has been in decline for 30 years and freefall for the last 10.
2. The entire LC camp system was developed at and in a time when BSA had literally MILLIONS more scouts that it did prior to 2019. Then LDS left. Then the bankruptcy. Then COVID.
3. The LCs didn't need to dump millions into making ALL camps in use pretty. They needed to come to face the reality: sell some and use the proceeds to refurbish the rest.
4. Much of the cash being spent now is endowment funds. NO ONE likes to spend down an endowment; the idea is to live off the interest in generates.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

What if this was years before the lawsuit and the LC's seeing that many of them have tens of millions in cash, decided to update and repair all scout camps in use?

How great would that have been?

If that had happened, the councils would be getting a much better price for their camps.  

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Then a well maintained camp would draw more use and make it more sustainable. 

I think you've got it backwards.  People haven't stopped using council camps because they aren't well maintained.  The council camps aren't well maintained because people have stopped using them.

 

[elitts]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:05 PM, David CO said:

If that had happened, the councils would be getting a much better price for their camps.  

 

No, probably not.  Most of these camps aren't selling for use as camps, they are selling to be logged and then developed, or even just developed.

 

On 9/23/2021 at 11:54 PM, David CO said:

I think you've got it backwards.  People haven't stopped using council camps because they aren't well maintained.  The council camps aren't well maintained because people have stopped using them.

 

Eh.. I have to think it's a little bit of both.  Outside of a new dining hall my troop's primary camp was entirely unchanged from the time I was a scout until my son was. (so about 25 years)  That's an awfully long time for a camp to exist with next to zero capital improvements. And even the dining hall only got replaced because a couple trees fell on the old one during a storm. 

But during all that time, summer camp attendance had actually increased as other camps in Michigan had been shut down.

[DuctTape]

23 hours ago, elitts said:

No, probably not.  Most of these camps aren't selling for use as camps, they are selling to be logged and then developed, or even just developed.

 

Eh.. I have to think it's a little bit of both.  Outside of a new dining hall my troop's primary camp was entirely unchanged from the time I was a scout until my son was. (so about 25 years)  That's an awfully long time for a camp to exist with next to zero capital improvements. And even the dining hall only got replaced because a couple trees fell on the old one during a storm. 

But during all that time, summer camp attendance had actually increased as other camps in Michigan had been shut down.

I think part of the problem with many council camps was capital improvements. Buildings need continual maintenance which is costly. These legacy costs are usually under-estimated. Too many camps used funds for capital improvements (read: new buildings) when scout camp should IMO de-emphasize buildings.

Scout Camp vs. summer camp for scouts.

[Eagle94-A1]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:54 PM, David CO said:

I think you've got it backwards.  People haven't stopped using council camps because they aren't well maintained.  The council camps aren't well maintained because people have stopped using them.

 

I think it depends upon the camp.

I know one council has fudged attendance numbers and costs to make the most used camp in the council seem to be the least used and most costly.  When questioned where they got the stats from, we discovered that A) They included an emergency capital expense in their maintenance expenses which they later admitted they should not have included. B) they included only those folks who paid to use the camp (our council has a program where if you do a variety of things, you can use council camps for free for unit events, which many units take advantage), so the actual usage was significantly lower according to the camp ranger and still not known to the rank and file, and C)  used the abridged attendance numbers above for the year that the camp was closed for over 9 months for the emergency capital expense repair. When volunteers protesting the number on the teleconference did their own calculations using the prior year's abridged numbers and maintenance costs (the year without the emergency repairs and the camp open the full year, but still without the actual full attendance numbers) the costs to operate the camp was approx. $11/person. There is speculation that if the actual attendance numbers were used, the camp is actually supporting the other camps in the council.

Yet no major work has been done at the camp in years. Local OA chapters have done all the repairs and maintenance, including some major work like shelter building. The council has made all kinds of excuses to do needed construction work at this camp. Speculation is that they have been trying to sell the camp for years, but one major donor to the council made the camp a condition of his donations. Not that he passed away, no telling what will happen.