Statement by the United Methodist Church

[jcousino]

if I am the charter holder I can dictate where the troop goes and does already (they own the unit) Your current charter partner currently as that right but most CO's are very hand off. I can sure that the council model they will not be so hands off. 

If your troop does not want to comply as a council troop , they can just replace leadership at whim ,or  Disband the the troop , or they may even come up with a fine (fee) system if you want to go outside of scout council activities.

Just my option 

john 

[PACAN]

@jcousino I have no doubt you are correct.   It's all about resource control and the LC saying you can't mess with us.  Why is the world would any LC want to sponsor units?  The LC will make the unit's life miserable.   Their definition of actively  participate will include additional fees for the pleasure of being your sponsor and to cover all the work they will be doing for your unit.

I had a friend say that maybe they will take all the LC ex-UMC units and form one Pack and Troop. 😜

JMHO

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

The LC that made the video had a link to the agreement form. It said it is mandatory to do FOS, popcorn, flowers and any other fundraiser at the council level.

This would kill some units. I know of council fundraisers that work extremely well in some areas of the council, but poorly in others because of demographics,  geography, and sponsors. I remember "camp cards" that one council was selling, and not a single vendor on the card was located within the district. No body wanted to spend $20 to $30 on a card they could not use.

 

4 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Camping is allowed at other council camps though. including for summer camp.

 

Every council is different, and changes occur within councils with each SE. What may be allowed today, may not be tomorrow.

 

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

An unenforceable edict??

My SE had already stated that a council board member would be appointed COR, and they would be doing their due diligence, INCLUDING SELECTING THE UNITS' LEADERS. (Bold, cap, and underlining for MAJOR emphasis). I see this as do it our way, or you will no longer be involved in Scouting at the unit level in our council. And considering the history my council has, I can see a lot of volunteers removed from their positions because they no longer support the council.

A lot of folks are quite upset with our council. They do not see the value in council operations. Paperwork gets messed up, delayed, or goes MIA. That includes advancement reports, registration, and completed Eagle applications.

Council also does not support the camps, volunteers do and then the council complains when things get done by the volunteers. Also not enough supplies purchased for summer camp so folks are "sharing" kits to complete MBs. Worse is equipment falling apart when used, including lifesaving equipment.

Council does not help in recruiting to the point we have lost 5 units in the past 10 years. Even when they did assist in recruiting, they would not listen when volunteers who live in and know an area  say the area cannot support two packs, but they create the 2nd pack anyway. This ends up killing both packs, and eventually a troop, within 3 years of the new pack forming.

As for programming, they do not provide any support for events when asked, then complain when an event goes over budget. Stuff that was requested the council order in advance to save money was never ordered. So folks are scrambling last minute to get the needed supplies, and paying more than budgeted because of the supplies are needed NOW. Or they create a second event overlapping an event planned a year in advance that interferes with the original event, without telling anyone until 2 weeks prior. Then when original event organizers  say it is not feasible, are rudely overruled. Which entails more supplies being needed to separate the two events, further going over budget.

Then there is how council treats its volunteers. When volunteers question decisions, propose alternatives, etc, they are at best quietly removed form their position. At worse, they are yelled and cursed out at and either fired on the spot or quit on their own.. I cannot tell you how many folks in my area have quit because of their treatment by council staff.

So I see this as a major danger sign.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Eagle94-A1

[jcousino]

"Why is the world would any LC want to sponsor units? "

My belief is that most LC do not want to. But with the current legal risk climate and BSA national history ,they will have to or have little or no choice or no scout units .

My cracked crystal ball look At 2023 for scouting

• Less  local scout units less income , (less FOS ,activates ,ect )
• Less scout numbers less national /local donations income 
• Closing and merging into mega council size (much the same why GS has gone few unit large service area)
• Selling of now surplus properties (camps) building etc.
• Loss of large numbers of adult from merging of council kingdoms (OA, wood badge , ect) 
• More loss of  adult non scout professional (Tradesmen that work at camp for free) because of a lack of local connection, 
• Loss of a lot of gift in kind from above
• loss of use regular folks because of the distance involved with mega councils 
• Further loss of income due the evolving recession

The most sadly a loss to the youth of what scouting should be and could be influencing their lives 

I hope its very cracked and non of the above occurs

john

 

[PACAN]

@jcousino  unfortunately everything you list is already happening.

 

@Eagle94-A1 unfortunately the professionals will never understand that they need volunteers more than volunteers need them.

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

"Why is the world would any LC want to sponsor units? "

My belief is that most LC do not want to. But with the current legal risk climate and BSA national history ,they will have to or have little or no choice or no scout units .

My cracked crystal ball look At 2023 for scouting

• Less  local scout units less income , (less FOS ,activates ,ect )
• Less scout numbers less national /local donations income 

Been happening in my neck of the woods for over 10 years.

 

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Closing and merging into mega council size (much the same why GS has gone few unit large service area)

If memory serves, National put in their court documents that they want to go from 280 councils to about 90. And mergers have begun.

 

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Selling of now surplus properties (camps) building etc.

Sad but true. And this further alienates the volunteers, continuing the downward spiral.

 

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• Loss of large numbers of adult from merging of council kingdoms (OA, wood badge , ect) 

 

Don't know about that. But at least in my woods, large numbers of experienced adults have left over treatment by pros. In too many instances, their knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience is irreplaceable.

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• More loss of  adult non scout professional (Tradesmen that work at camp for free) because of a lack of local connection, 
• Loss of a lot of gift in kind from above

 

One of the great things about having a great summer camp program is developing connections to the camp. Reflecting upon my OA experience back in the day, one reason for it was the connection to camp. In my  12 years as a Scout and Scouter in the troop I grew up in,  we went to a non-council summer camp twice. We provided staff to that camp. We were strong supporters of the camp. My local camp has had so many problems over the years, very few folks want to take a chance with it. Why go there when better camps are either closer, or similar distance? No one is interested in volunteering at the camp.

Now the local non-summercamp camp was different. Council stopped taking care of it years ago, despite one of the largest council events happening there yearly. The Local OA chapter and Scouters volunteered untold manhours, and unaccounted for gifts in kind to take care of it. I remember an instance where a major volunteer organized workday resulted in so many folks coming out to help, that not only every project on the ranger's list was completed, many longterm goals were completed. But now that it is sold, no one cares about the surviving camp.

 

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

• loss of use regular folks because of the distance involved with mega councils 
• Further loss of income due the evolving recession

The most sadly a loss to the youth of what scouting should be and could be influencing their lives 

I hope its very cracked and non of the above occurs

john

 

Sadly yo are right. especially at the Cub Scout level.

[gpurlee]

More clarity is emerging around the issue of the UMC chartering Scouting units, it appears. 

First, the official line from conference and national leadership appears to be that UMC congregations should use the new affiliation model or drop chartering all together and only offer a facility use agreement. While traditional chartering apparently still remains an option, it is very strongly discouraged.

The reasons:

Liability for adult selection - the BSA has resources beyond the local congregation to vet applicants including use of the ineligible volunteer files and national background checks. Let the BSA fully assume that responsibility and liability for adult selection which in many ways they are better suited to do.

Supervision - Congregations are legally responsible for supervising programs that they "own." Many of the local congregations which are aging and declining in membership simply do not have the resources to adequately supervise Scouting programs yet are being held responsible in the courts for doing so.

Insurance - several of the UMC providers are refusing to provide coverage to local UMC congregations that sponsor Scouting. After a billion dollars of losses in the bankruptcy case, this is not unexpected. This affects insurance coverage for all other UMC programs.

On another front, several councils appear to be (reluctantly?) adopting the affiliation model as an option while reminding units that the traditional charter is available. The reality is that local councils devasted by the impact of covid on membership are now confronted with the potential additional loss of up to 30% of their units if the UMC drops Scouting. How many additional large membership hits can the BSA take following the loss of the LDS church, covid impact, and negative publicity?

An observer has to wonder if other chartered partners are very carefully watching this unfold and if this UMC BSA affiliation model will be the wave of the future for Scouting in general?

 

[scoutldr]

Reading this thread has convinced me that letting my 60 year membership in BSA lapse was the right thing to do.  It was a good ride.

[KublaiKen]

Very late to this, but I just wanted to post what our Troop (and the "affiliated" Pack) are doing.

We have been sponsored by our UMC for 72 years, and the Pack a bit less. We're now dotting the i's and crossing the t's on a new CO agreement with the Episcopalian church a block or so away. We'll have a facilities use agreement with the UMC, though I think we'll be moving physically more and more over to the Episcopalian church in due time.

Our Troop is pretty well off for a Troop, I think, and I suspect that if our Council got our bank account we would not see it back if we later found a CO.

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

Our Troop is pretty well off for a Troop, I think, and I suspect that if our Council got our bank account we would not see it back if we later found a CO.

I would NOT trust the council. I was told that the OA chapter's account that was for the camp being sold now has a $0 balance, and the OA chapter adviser and assoc. adviser have no idea where the funds went. Found out when they went to move the funds from the camp account, to the campership account. Shenanigans like this have happened before, and it caused bills not to be paid.

 

[PACAN]

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

[InquisitiveScouter]

17 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

We are not a UMC-chartered unit, but I know of several in our area.

Two linked Troops (B & G) sought out separate new CO's.  One went to Kiwanis, and the other to a local Fire House.  However, they are staying at their UMC with a FUA, because the relationship is good and the congregation wishes to continue support.

Another has council as CO, as they could not find a willing participant, so took up this charter as a temporary arrangement.  They are currently at their UMC with a FUA, but are looking to pull up stakes and move completely, when they can find a new home.

A mixed bag, it seems...

Edited November 17, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[KublaiKen]

21 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

Our District Membership Chair sent us this list of what some other units in our District were doing:

- one UMC will recharter as before/ traditionally relationship

- several looking at new chartering org., but Facility Use Agreement to continue to meet at their respective churches

- one looking for complete replacement of chartered org. & meeting location

- two looking at Council as chartered org. but Facility Use Agreement to continue to meet at their respective churches.

[PACAN]

Thanks KublaiKen but how is a unit rechartering as before?   Not an option as we read it.

[Eagle94-A1]

40 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Are there other UMC units out there that can share what they are doing?  

My friends' units, a pack and 2 troops, that are chartered by an UMC church started their own Optimist Club with the sole purpose of chartering units.  They will have a FUA with the UMC church.