Chapter 11 Announced - Part 6 - Plan 5.0/TCC Plan TBD

[RememberSchiff]

Another path

Dockets 6829 through 6855  date: Oct 28,2021

18 minutes ago, DJ72 said:

Where would one find this information?

 

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

TCC has just filed a bunch of depositions against the insurance company's.  @CynicalScouterwhat does this latest turn of events mean?

Notices Of Depositions normally follow Requests To Produce (documents), and sometimes Requests To Admit (facts).

Attorneys want the documents first, for review, and then structure their deposition questioning strategy around the documents produced, and admissions or denials of admission of facts.

So, dig up TCC's Request(s) To Produce, and you will see what TCC is interested in investigating.

Likely, the TCC is interested in the nature and extent of insurance carrier coverages:  coverage type, time period covered, amount of coverage, deductible, identity of insureds, and the cooperation the insured is to provide to the insurance carrier, i.e, reporting potential claims and concealment of known or suspected claims.

Typically, with each renewal of a policy, the insured is to declare if there are any known prior incidents which might produce a claim during the term of the new policy, and if any such incidents are declared, the insurer will "except" them from the coverage of the new policy.  Meaning, those potential claims will NOT be covered in future policies. (It is their "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.  And insurance companies love them.)

In this fashion, insurance companies narrow their exposure by excluding potential claims from the new policy which have not "ripened" into a claim covered by the expiring policy.

This means that the insured, BSA, is now "self-insuring" for those excluded potential claims, and thereby, the insurance company will pay nothing for those claims.

If BSA does not disclose known potential claims at the time of renewal of a policy, and any of those potential claims ripens into a bona fide lawsuit during the term of the new policy

TCC needs to know the true facts, good or bad, so that the TCC can evaluate the true strength of the aggregate claims of the abused.

Edited October 29, 2021 by SiouxRanger
Monopoly reference. And ADDED a "d."

[SiouxRanger]

43 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Notices Of Depositions normally follow Requests To Produce (documents), and sometimes Requests To Admit (facts).

Attorneys want the documents first, for review, and then structure their deposition questioning strategy around the documents produced, and admissions or denials of admission of facts.

So, dig up TCC's Request(s) To Produce, and you will see what TCC is interested in investigating.

Likely, the TCC is interested in the nature and extent of insurance carrier coverages:  coverage type, time period covered, amount of coverage, deductible, identity of insureds, and the cooperation the insured is to provide to the insurance carrier, i.e, reporting potential claims and concealment of known or suspected claims.

Typically, with each renewal of a policy, the insured is to declare if there are any known prior incidents which might produce a claim during the term of the new policy, and if any such incidents are declared, the insurer will "except" them from the coverage of the new policy.  Meaning, those potential claims will NOT be covered in future policies. (It is their "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.  And insurance companies love them.)

In this fashion, insurance companies narrow their exposure by excluding potential claims from the new policy which have not "ripened" into a claim covered by the expiring policy.

This means that the insured, BSA, is now "self-insuring" for those excluded potential claims, and thereby, the insurance company will pay nothing for those claims.

If BSA does not disclose known potential claims at the time of renewal of a policy, and any of those potential claims ripens into a bona fide lawsuit during the term of the new policy

TCC needs to know the true facts, good or bad, so that the TCC can evaluate the true strength of the aggregate claims of the abused.

And, I just want to say, I rather vented on what I consider "insiders" on this forum, speaking in a partially obtuse code.  Speaking to each other.  It is hard to follow at times.

And anyone-me-who can post the quoted post above-does not tend to find anything hard to follow.

And any lawyers on this forum who have refinements to make to my post, please do.

I apparently have a completely different view of this particular part of the forum (political issues and bankruptcy) then many others.

I understand the need for "insider" discussion and to support Survivors.  All those folks chatting are likely Survivors or those high attuned to the needs and concerns of Survivors, and I have no problem with that.  Survivors need huge support.  And I am am a huge supporter.  I have no issue with ThenNow or anyone else.

My concern is that there a another 82,000± claimants WHO CANNOT FOLLOW THE DISCUSSION.

And they seek INFORMATION and cannot get it from this Forum.

Because the discussion is too obtuse to be followed easily.

Some poster mentioned that he/she really appreciated PosterX because it made them look all the "hard words" that PosterX used.

I have a Bachelor's and professional degree normally earned in 7 years I earned in 6.

And I can slather all my posts with big words that no one understands.

And the RESULT:  I have FAILED to communicate.

So, I say again, everyone make clear references so the outsiders can follow along.

THEY NEED THE GUIDANCE OF YOUR WISDOM AND JUDGMENT.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

And, I just want to say, I rather vented on what I consider "insiders" on this forum, speaking in a partially obtuse code.  Speaking to each other.  It is hard to follow at times.

 

7 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

So, I say again, everyone make clear references so the outsiders can follow along.

You mean like

"SCOTUS:   An enigma wrapped in a paradox, encased in concrete....Allen, Churchill, Alfred E. Neuman, Maynard G. Krebs, Bugs Bunny? (I get my mentors so confused.)

I was just trying to distinguish the different concepts for folks.

After the decision in Korematsu vs. United States, who can trust SCOTUS to follow the Constitution?"

I didn't understand most of those obtuse (insider?) references, so I educated myself and looked them up...then proceeded not to whinge about it.

Physician, heal thyself...

[qwazse]

Regarding obtuse references: This is an open forum. As long as it’s not ad hominem, a poster can be pretty free with their style. Other concepts are elaborated in Forum Support. If something is unclear, ask, and the first one to provide an answer might get an upvote. (Some folks desire them.)

About yachts and other expensive hobbies, I daresay that some victims have them, or have friends who do. If Mr. Kosnoff thinks that a night on the water is such an insult to a lawyer’s clients, he could take it up with the Bar Association.

[SiouxRanger]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

You mean like

"SCOTUS:   An enigma wrapped in a paradox, encased in concrete....Allen, Churchill, Alfred E. Neuman, Maynard G. Krebs, Bugs Bunny? (I get my mentors so confused.)

I was just trying to distinguish the different concepts for folks.

After the decision in Korematsu vs. United States, who can trust SCOTUS to follow the Constitution?"

I didn't understand most of those obtuse (insider?) references, so I educated myself and looked them up...then proceeded not to whinge about it.

Physician, heal thyself...

Good point.

11 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Notices Of Depositions normally follow Requests To Produce (documents), and sometimes Requests To Admit (facts).

Attorneys want the documents first, for review, and then structure their deposition questioning strategy around the documents produced, and admissions or denials of admission of facts.

So, dig up TCC's Request(s) To Produce, and you will see what TCC is interested in investigating.

Likely, the TCC is interested in the nature and extent of insurance carrier coverages:  coverage type, time period covered, amount of coverage, deductible, identity of insureds, and the cooperation the insured is to provide to the insurance carrier, i.e, reporting potential claims and concealment of known or suspected claims.

Typically, with each renewal of a policy, the insured is to declare if there are any known prior incidents which might produce a claim during the term of the new policy, and if any such incidents are declared, the insurer will "except" them from the coverage of the new policy.  Meaning, those potential claims will NOT be covered in future policies. (It is their "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.  And insurance companies love them.)

In this fashion, insurance companies narrow their exposure by excluding potential claims from the new policy which have not "ripened" into a claim covered by the expiring policy.

This means that the insured, BSA, is now "self-insuring" for those excluded potential claims, and thereby, the insurance company will pay nothing for those claims.

If BSA does not disclose known potential claims at the time of renewal of a policy, and any of those potential claims ripens into a bona fide lawsuit during the term of the new policy

TCC needs to know the true facts, good or bad, so that the TCC can evaluate the true strength of the aggregate claims of the abused.

Healed.

[johnsch322]

 

Another reason not to vote for the current plan:

Press Release | Press Releases | Newsroom | #childabuse | #children | #kids - Parent Security Online

A proposed federal law for no SOL in civil cases of Child Abuse.

[Eagle1970]

7 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

 

Another reason not to vote for the current plan:

Press Release | Press Releases | Newsroom | #childabuse | #children | #kids - Parent Security Online

A proposed federal law for no SOL in civil cases of Child Abuse.

I won't be voting for any plan with Grey Matrix while this is pending.  If it has Durbin AND Blackburn on the lead, one would have to believe it has a shot at bipartisan passage.  It won't cost any money and would sure look ugly on a campaign blurb to have voted against it.  I will be following closely and sincerely hope this puts an end to the injustice that pits us against each other based on the map.

[Eagle1970]

"Eliminating Limits to Justice for Child Sex Abuse Victims Act of 2021" clearly has bipartisan support (something that is not easily accomplished under current circumstances).  Texas and Tennessee Conservatives have signed on with California and Illinois Liberals.  That rarely occurs these days.  So the entire issue of SOLs will need to be revisited.  I'm sure there are many Ohio State University victims who are hoping for the same outcome.  This could be a game-changer and may happen in time for the BSA settlement.  Personally, I will be overjoyed if it becomes law-not necessarily for myself but for all of the survivors in closed States.  

[RememberSchiff]

Note: I created a new, separate post unrelated to OP. 

 

[skeptic]

A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee.  "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: • owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. • has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. • is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is • a Youth Ministry of the Church • an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) • is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. • recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. • ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. • promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. • supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. • Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. • Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: • The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. • The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. • Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: • Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. • The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, • Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation"

@skeptic  Note below is a copy of above with my guess of original format. ~RS

A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee.

"Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units

The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting.

What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people

As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity:

• owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation.

• has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head.

• is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance.

The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is

• a Youth Ministry of the Church

• an integral part of the parish community and its mission

The Charter Organization Representative (COR)

• is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District.

• recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them.

• ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish.

• promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs.

• supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese.

• Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org.

• Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District.

Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following:

• The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders.

• The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit.

• Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure.

Additional information:

In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following:

• Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols.

• The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations,

• Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment.

With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry.

Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation"

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by RememberSchiff
restore format lost in pasting

[SiouxRanger]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:54 PM, Eagle1970 said:

"Eliminating Limits to Justice for Child Sex Abuse Victims Act of 2021" clearly has bipartisan support (something that is not easily accomplished under current circumstances).  Texas and Tennessee Conservatives have signed on with California and Illinois Liberals.  That rarely occurs these days.  So the entire issue of SOLs will need to be revisited.  I'm sure there are many Ohio State University victims who are hoping for the same outcome.  This could be a game-changer and may happen in time for the BSA settlement.  Personally, I will be overjoyed if it becomes law-not necessarily for myself but for all of the survivors in closed States.  

I remember a TV series some years, ago, M.A.SH.

There was an episode with a scene with the two principal characters sitting in their barracks tent, each holding a few playing cards, with a chess/checkers board between them, with checkers and chess pieces on the board.

Another character came in and made some comment about the "game" noting the discordant collection of pieces, and asked, "What are you playing-and what are the rules?"

The reply was "Double Cranko-there are no rules."

And with the new bill, the entire dynamic of the BSA bankruptcy may change.  Not so much for the BSA, but dramatically for the Claimants.

There are currently two groups of claimants:

1.  Those whose claims are legally enforceable under current statutes of limitation.  By law, they are the only group legally entitled to any share of any settlement money.

2.  Those whose claims are legally barred from enforcement and legally entitled to nothing in the BSA bankruptcy. BSA seeks to include these barred claims in the settlement for reasons I have mentioned several times previously.

And so now, a bill proposes to eliminate the statute of limitations regarding child sexual abuse claims, which will, if enacted in time relative to the BSA bankruptcy, (might) convert all of the child sexual abuse claims against the BSA which have so far been barred by statutes of limitations (paragraph 2 claims above) into legally enforceable claims, which must then be recognized by the Bankruptcy Judge as legally enforceable, and thereby ENTITLED to be added to the calculation of the distribution of the total amount of money in the Settlement Fund to be divided up amongst the sexual abuse claimants.

So, what is the significance of this bill to eliminate statues of limitation relating to child sexual abuse claims?

Well, it means to the Claimants with claims not barred by  statutes of limitation, that you will receive LESS because now there is a whole other group who will receive some of the funds that would have been paid to you.

And to the Claimants whose claims are barred by expired statutes of limitation pertaining to you, you will now, likely, receive some payment, but it will come at the expense Claimants whose claims which have not been barred by statutes of limitation.

ThenNow, I believe it was, expressed a concern that the process would "turn Claimant upon Claimant."

Sadly, bankruptcy is a mathematical process of taking a FIXED AMOUNT OF SETTLEMENT FUNDS and dividing it up amongst those Claimants who have a legally enforceable claim to those funds, as determined by law.

It is elementary math:  The numerator is the funds available and is a fixed amount (Though that amount is not yet fixed-but once fixed, that is it).  

The denominator is the total number of Claimants (and their claims as weighted by the degree and elements of abuse which they were subjected to).

Increase the number of Claimants in the denominator (weighted for degree of abuse) and the amount paid to each Claimant DECREASES.

So, those Claimants who have legally enforceable claims and are not barred by statutes of limitation are, in effect,. subsidizing Claimants whose statutes of limitation have expired.

And so, a poster expressed his concern that the bankruptcy process would pit Sexual Abuse Claimant versus Sexual Abuse Claimant.

Sadly, it does, but it is not "personal; it is elementary math which is part of the bankruptcy code.

In a nutshell, if you are a Claimant with a legally enforceable claim, and if those whose who were abused whose claims are barred by statutes of limitation are allowed a payment, YOU are paying that, and your payment will be LESS.

IF that statute is enacted, and IF it is applicable to the BSA bankruptcy (filed prior to the effective date of the law), no one will have a choice.  It will be the law.

Upon the applicability of such a law, enacted AFTER the filing of the BSA bankruptcy proceeding, I express no opinion or thoughts.

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

A Scouter friend posted this from the Catholic Committee.  "Statement Supporting the Chartering of Boy Scouts of America Units The purpose of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting is to utilize and ensure the constructive use of the programs of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a viable form of youth ministry with the Catholic youth of our nation. As a church committee of concerned Catholic Laity and Clergy, which is advisory to the Boy Scouts of America, and relates to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops through its USCCB Episcopal Liaison, we make this statement in support of the BSA charter organization model for Catholic parishes and entities who engage in Catholic Scouting. What is a chartered organization? A chartered organization is a community-based group whose objectives, mission and methodologies are compatible with those of the BSA. It agrees to use the Scouting program to further its mission to serve young people As a Chartering Partner, the Catholic parish or entity: • owns the unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) and sets direction of the program especially as it relates to faith formation. • has a Charter Organization Representative (COR) who is appointed by its Pastor or Institution Head. • is a beneficiary of the BSA Liability Insurance policy and is issued a Certificate of Insurance. The Chartered Unit (pack, troop, venture crew, or ship) is • a Youth Ministry of the Church • an integral part of the parish community and its mission The Charter Organization Representative (COR) • is a liaison between the unit and Pastor as well as between the Parish and the Local BSA Council and District. • recommends leaders to the Pastor or Institution Head, who officially selects and approves them. • ensures that the program is integrated into the Youth Ministry of the parish. • promotes the NCCS religious emblems and religious activities programs. • supports the activities of the local Diocesan Catholic Committee on Scouting and Youth Ministry programs of the diocese. • Completes the 4-part Catholic COR training on scouting.org. • Is a voting member of the BSA Council and District. Catholic parishes and entities who elect to host units chartered to other entities via a Facilities Use Agreement, instead of chartering the unit themselves, should note the following: • The chartering organization, (local BSA Council or other organization,) selects and approves the leaders. • The Parish or Catholic entity does not own the unit and does not have the right or authority to create policy, set the direction of the program or approve leadership for the Unit. • Although the chartering organization may be required to show proof of insurance to the host parish or entity, the parish or Catholic entity is not necessarily protected from exposure. Additional information: In a letter dated September 14, 2021, and issued to the Scout Executives of local councils, the Boy Scouts of America encouraged all Chartered Organizations to consider the following: • Scouting is a safe program thanks to its youth protection protocols, which are continually reviewed and refined. Most of the claims against the BSA are historical, predating adoption of these protocols. • The insurance protections that have been in place for the last 45 years provide complete protection for Chartered Organizations. Going-forward, the BSA’s insurance coverage is even more robust – with $135 million of coverage in 2021. The BSA’s premier youth protection policies and this insurance coverage will continue to provide protection to Chartered Organizations, • Chartered Organizations and Scouting share a mission to develop youth of character consistent with the shared values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. That is best accomplished when we work together to ensure suitable leaders provide an outstanding program in a safe environment. With all of the above in mind, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting recommends and encourages both diocesan and parish leadership to support and adopted the Charter Organization model for units that seek to meet on properties owned by Catholic parishes and entities, as the best model to both protect the interests of the church as well as facilitate effective youth ministry. Further inquiries regarding this matter should be directed to Mr. Jim Weiskircher, Chairman, Nation"

A few paragraph breaks would help follow this.

[RememberSchiff]

9 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

A few paragraph breaks would help follow this.

Done.

[Eagle1970]

16 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

IF that statute is enacted, and IF it is applicable to the BSA bankruptcy (filed prior to the effective date of the law), no one will have a choice.  It will be the law.

Upon the applicability of such a law, enacted AFTER the filing of the BSA bankruptcy proceeding, I express no opinion or thoughts.

IF the current proposal fails, which I fully expect, there will be a significant number of survivors contacting legislators to get this on fast track.  And, I would be surprised if many of the tens of thousands who are time-barred would support the next plan without giving this legislation time to play out.  I am hopeful, for the vast majority of survivors who are closed or grey, that this does become law before BSA bankruptcy is finalized.  The only reason I joined this fun club was the assurance that, as a bankruptcy,  SOL did not apply.  Any other settlement basis would violate that assurance and leave those on the short end feeling abused all over again.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Eagle1970