CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, skeptic said: it seems an impossible task to actually put value on pain, either physcial or emotional, or psychological (though that would be emotional really). And as I've pointed out to you at least once if not twice: courts in the Anglo-American court systems have been doing this for 700+ years. And let me put this to bed once and for all: some of the acts of sexual abuse being discussed here have absolutely NO physical harm to the victim. If you were to take the victim and conduct a full physical assessment of him after the abuse took place, there would be no PHYSICAL sign of ANY harm. And yet by any definition they have been sexually abused. I'm not going into details here, but if you want to get specific, I am referring to Tier 2-6 type sexual abuse here. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/8ad0771c-f79e-40c9-ae6c-4e145ccac9f9_6418.pdf Under your theory, these boys (now men) were not "harmed" and their pain cannot be "valued" because why? Because there was no physical harm? Again, this boys (now men) were harmed. Courts have for 700 years allowed for an valued such claims. Drop it, please. Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, swilliams said: Question about how the lawsuits are listed. If a council shows "John Does 1-10", does that mean there are ten lawsuits filed under that claim number? If a second listing shows "Corp. 1-100"? No, 1 lawsuit, multiple plaintiffs, multiple defendants. Let me explain. I know Scoutmaster Smith abused me, BUT I think or have reason to believe adults in my scout unit also helped cover it up. I don't know their names yet. So I am putting in a placeholder here ("John Doe DEFENDANT 1-100") so I can later amend the lawsuit to add a specific name. John Doe 1-10 PLAINTIFFS is 10 different people ALL alleging the same person(s) abused them. I guess they can be separated out (Settle with John Doe 4, but not John Doe 7) but for now they are suing TOGETHER. Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, skeptic said: It is still difficult for me to truly understand the use of the term "value of the claim(s). As, it seems an impossible task to actually put value on pain, either physcial or emotional, or psychological (though that would be emotional really). We've discussed this previously, ad nauseam. History and the law are rife with means, methods and bases for calculating this. Correct. No "making whole," but that is entirely different from being able (or not) to calculate value in the realm of legal liability and damages. I know the response is likely to be, "this is not a fine art painter with a history of value of their work who loses their panting hand," but many judgement and settlement numbers are on record to aid this process. THAT is how the TCC arrived at their valuations/estimations. Edited September 29, 2021 by ThenNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 This just showed up in a FB page: https://legalnewsline.com/stories/608422718-judge-orders-deeper-probe-into-where-thousands-of-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-claims-came-from?fbclid=IwAR0IGy-lFMOEhEhEOOE0bFHLnKPZA9hrvRfj_f3SeCrgR1vwpV4d4VYH54A Since I do not follow these threads constantly, I may just have missed comment on it. But, on the other hand, I am intrigued by the note of skepticism indicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) BSA & LDS are not aligned .... it seems like BSA believes this is scouting only. LDS seems to think every person cannot sue for non scouting if they took the scouting claim. This is BIG. LDS seems to think otherwise.... uh oh. Ongoing discussion as it is not clear in the plan. Judge is indicating this is not clear. Edited September 29, 2021 by Eagle1993 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 minute ago, skeptic said: This just showed up in a FB page: https://legalnewsline.com/stories/608422718-judge-orders-deeper-probe-into-where-thousands-of-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-claims-came-from?fbclid=IwAR0IGy-lFMOEhEhEOOE0bFHLnKPZA9hrvRfj_f3SeCrgR1vwpV4d4VYH54A Since I do not follow these threads constantly, I may just have missed comment on it. But, on the other hand, I am intrigued by the note of skepticism indicated. The judge is allowing discovery on HOW the claims were processed. That does NOT mean all claims where invalid. I know I've posted all the subpoenas so far on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said: Other COs do NOT have the situation LDS has. 1) LDS was, in effect, the SINGLE Chartering Organization for all their units. No other group is like that. As was pointed out by the attorney for the Methodists and Catholics (ad hoc committees): the CO wasn't The United Methodist Church of America. It was UMC Church of Smalltown, USA. It wasn't the Diocese of Dallas or even the Roman Catholic Church, it was St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA. 2) LDS' price point was around $100,000 (250 million / 2500) with $100 BILLION in assets. As I said before: for them $250 million is a rounding error. Asking St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA to come up with $100,000 is a LOT different. You might want to note ... COs & bankruptcy - Eraseing past debts (aka liability for past CSA) COs & previous settlements COs that don't exist anymore. COs that exist, but maybe different entities Good luck doing the research. Good luck finding lawyers who want to take on this large effort. ... The country is filled with churches that have sold / merged / closed / etc. Good luck figuring out if it was a "merger" that has liability for the past or a new church given the building. So United Methodist small town USA doesn't exist anymore. Their building now says Cross Roads or Our Loving Savior. Is it the same church? Different church? ... You'd have to invest thousands to trace the lineage. ... My own home town has many churches. Two that continue as from 50 years ago. Most / All the rest have been acquired / changed hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: BSA & LDS are not aligned .... it seems like BSA believes this is scouting only. LDS seems to think every person cannot sue for non scouting if they took the scouting claim. This is BIG. LDS seems to think otherwise.... uh oh. My ward leader abused me My ward leader WHO WAS MY SCOUTMASTER abused me OUTSIDE of a scouting event. My ward leader WHO WAS MY SCOUTMASTER abused me DURING a scouting event. What gets covered here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 14 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: TCC estimated claims values (NOTE: TCC specifies the sexual act, I am referring to "Tiers") Base Min Base Max 9.63% of Base Min Open Gray 1 Midpoint Gray 2 Midpoint Gray 3 Midpoint Closed Midpoint 100.00% 60.00% 37.50% 17.50% 5.50% Tier 1 $600,000 $2,700,000 $57,771 $57,771 $34,663 $21,664 $10,110 $3,177 Tier 2 $450,000 $2,025,000 $43,328 $43,328 $25,997 $16,248 $7,582 $2,383 Tier 3 $300,000 $1,350,000 $28,886 $28,886 $17,332 $10,832 $5,055 $1,589 Tier 4 $150,000 $675,000 $14,443 $14,443 $8,666 $5,416 $2,528 $794 Tier 5 $75,000 $337,500 $7,221 $7,221 $4,333 $2,708 $1,264 $397 Tier 6 $3,500 $8,500 $337 $337 $202 $126 $59 $19 Based on this chart, it would appear that one could quantify the number of claims that would/should take the $3500. If someone has access to claims by Tier, it would be interesting to know that number. Suddenly, it looks to me like many would take the cash and get out. If your abuse is in 4,5 or 6 there is nothing more to even talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said: If someone has access to claims by Tier, it would be interesting to know that number. We have it by tier. We do NOT have it by tier AND state, so we can't tell. Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said: If someone has access to claims by Tier, it would be interesting to know that number. By Tier, but redacted to remove descriptions/abuse categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said: I have to think in the end the judge is never, ever going to simply let BSA bleed out of cash and die. So yes, and I'll acknowledge it has never happened in the context of sexual abuse based bankruptcies, that in the end the judge will order BSA to pay in the $220 million (or however much it has left at that point) to a settlement trustee and be done with it. That of course leaves the LCs completely up creeks without paddles and will immediately/within a month lead to a dozen LCs filing their own bankruptcies. In many ways, I hope this happens. This case has devolved into a tragic farce. No one will get out of this looking good. No one will be healed. This is extremely expensive (+$100m already???) and looks extremely problematic to close out. Too long. Too many conflicting interests. Can't even cleanly establish who represents who and if they are a real claimant. Time and cash are being wasted. BSA has X amount of assets that it can release and survive. That should happen and soon. Let the trust resolve the paychecks. Edited September 29, 2021 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said: We have it by tier. We do NOT have it by tier AND state, so we can't tell. I remember seeing it. And I remember the majority of claims were in the Tiers 1-3. But if you eliminated half the claimants with the $3500 ($145M) there may be higher settlements for the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swilliams Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 From a legal standpoint, for the LDS church I'm wondering if they have more of a liability due to the way they "call" (appoint) their leaders? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said: Based on this chart, it would appear that one could quantify the number of claims that would/should take the $3500. Claims below $3500 BY TIER Tier 6 claims in all states (Closed, Gray 3, Gray 2, Gray 1, Open) Tier 5 claims in Closed, Gray 3 and Gray 2 states. Tier 4 claims in Closed and Gray 3 states. Tier 3 claims in Closed states. Tier 2 claims in Closed states. Tier 1 claims in Closed States. Claims below $3500 BY STATE Victims in all closed states Victims in Gray 3 states with Tier 4, 5, or 6 claims Victims in Gray 2 states with Tier 5 or 6 claims Victims in Gray 1 states with Tier 6 claims Victims in Open states with Tier 6 claims Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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