Chapter 11 Announced - Part 6 - Plan 5.0/TCC Plan TBD

[Eagle1970]

8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Based on Stang's two comments yesterday about how much victims could expect under the existing plan, I am trying to extrapolate.

Stang said in an open state Tier 1 abuse (he used the exact term, I am not) was $57,000 and that in the "next level state" was $34,600. Assume that means a Gray 3 state.

We know from the RSA that the old scaling factors were

• Open    1.0
• Gray 1    .50-.70
• Gray 2    .30-.45
• Gray 3    .10-.25
• Closed    .01-.10

If $57,000 represents 100% value (open state) what is 34,600? around 60%, the midpoint of Gray 1.

And $57,000 is 9.5% of the minimum base value for Tier 1 abuse.

Therefore, let's extrapolate.

	Base Min	Base Max	9.5% of Base Min	Open	Gray 1 Midpoint	Gray 2 Midpoint	Gray 3 Midpoint	Closed Midpoint
				100.0%	60.0%	37.5%	17.5%	5.5%
Tier 1	$600,000	$2,700,000	$57,000.00	$57,000.00	$34,200.00	$21,375.00	$9,975.00	$3,135.00
Tier 2	$300,000	$1,350,000	$28,500.00	$28,500.00	$17,100.00	$10,687.50	$4,987.50	$1,567.50
Tier 3	$150,000	$675,000	$14,250.00	$14,250.00	$8,550.00	$5,343.75	$2,493.75	$783.75
Tier 4	$150,000	$675,000	$14,250.00	$14,250.00	$8,550.00	$5,343.75	$2,493.75	$783.75
Tier 5	$75,000	$337,500	$7,125.00	$7,125.00	$4,275.00	$2,671.88	$1,246.88	$391.88
Tier 6	$3,500	$8,500	$332.50	$332.50	$199.50	$124.69	$58.19	$18.29

 

 

That could make $3500 look good.  This is a sad situation.  I feel that the hype in signing up claimants was negligent to an extreme.  The talk of equitable compensation and equal treatment regarding SoL only exacerbated it.  IF these numbers turn out to be close to accurate, I'm sure most of us would not have bothered.

[swilliams]

On 9/23/2021 at 2:01 AM, johnsch322 said:

This is a great question and was asked to me by my therapist and honestly I had no real answer.  In the context of how this bankruptcy is unfolding I think there will never be enough monetary compensation to make a difference.  It appears  at this juncture that I as an abused will have no real recourse but just to accept whatever will awarded to me and what that amount will be is anyone's guess.  From what I have read and all that I can glean from comments and lawyer statements it looks like I will be asked to vote for something that really promises me nothing.  

I will say that if to little is awarded then it will feel as if my suffering and my pain will have very little value in the eyes of those who were responsible to keep me safe. That includes the BSA, my LC and the insurance company who theoretically backed them by granting a policy.  I think it would also be fair to say that the Judge in this case might also be one to think has no real value for mine and others pain and suffering.  First I think she should be telling LC's and CO's that if they want to be channeled in then they need to pony up enough that it actually hurts them financially. Not to the point of putting them out of existence but actual financial pain.  I also believe she should have the same attitude towards the insurance company if they want to settle now.  Otherwise all of them can take their chance in state court.  

I would like to add one more thought and that is I believe that no matter what the outcome will be many who are victims are being revictimized and the mental devastation that opening up these old wounds will cost many lives.

Your pain, that of the others who have posted, and if the many others who aren’t on this board, do have value to the ground level volunteers like me. (‘Value’ used in this case only in quoting your post.)

It’s very apparent at this point that there isn’t enough money in the pot to compensate for the renewed pain of the bankruptcy case, let alone the original abuse.  Not that any amount could erase the harm done. I sincerely hope that when this is over there are enough of us (those who are involved in today’s scouting) who have become aware of the magnitude of the abuse, that we can make a difference on an individual level in our Packs, Troops and Crews toward stopping future abuse. 

Please know that your sharing has changed my own views of what BSA can and should give up - and that probably goes for others here as well.  Hoping that we come out of this leaner, more disciplined, and more focused on youth and less on the organization.

This post may get bumped to a different thread, as it’s not directly related to the case, but I felt compelled to try and let all of you know that your involvement has made a difference to at least one person, and I’ll take that to my Troop and Crew.

[ThenNow]

8 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

That could make $3500 look good.  This is a sad situation.  I feel that the hype in signing up claimants was negligent to an extreme.  The talk of equitable compensation and equal treatment regarding SoL only exacerbated it.  IF these numbers turn out to be close to accurate, I'm sure most of us would not have bothered.

And remember, all but the 5000 pro se claimants would see at least a 40% reduction to those numbers.

[Eagle1970]

3 minutes ago, swilliams said:

It’s very apparent at this point that there isn’t enough money in the pot to compensate for the renewed pain of the bankruptcy case, let alone the original abuse.

Thank you.  You hit the nail on the head.  The renewed pain is worse in some ways.  I had at least buried it in my mind somewhere.  And that is not to mention that IF my abuser is still alive, he will not be very happy with me coming forward (and I recall that he really likes guns).  This was very poorly handled and has left me wondering how supportive I should be to BSA.  Mods can move this too, if need be.  I just don't need 2 threads.

[CynicalScouter]

16 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

That could make $3500 look good. 

Even if you somehow doubled it or tripled the numbers I came up with, for victims in statute of limitations states, the numbers are just not going to be THAT much better than $3500. And that's after having to go through the settlement trustee system, being subject to interviews by the trustee or his/her staff, etc.

Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1970]

4 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

And remember, all but the 5000 pro se claimants would see at least a 40% reduction to those numbers.

Is there a "crying" emoji?  Based on the way this is unfolding, Pro se was a wise move on my part.  I cannot imagine a law firm sending 60% of $3500 (or less) to a client with any explanation.  How would that cover letter read?

[CynicalScouter]

Just now, Eagle1970 said:

I cannot imagine a law firm sending 60% of $3500 (or less) to a client with any explanation.  How would that cover letter read?

The Coalition lawyers were pushing for "this is just a down payment, there's more to come from the insurance companies".

Of course, as has been pointed out, now that Hartford has set the standard (787 million / 24000 = $32791) no other insurance companies are going to accept anything other than the Hartford deal.

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The Coalition lawyers were pushing for "this is just a down payment, there's more to come from the insurance companies".

Of course, as has been pointed out, now that Hartford has set the standard (787 million / 24000 = $32791) no other insurance companies are going to accept anything other than the Hartford deal.

I think the BSA and Coalition are offering false promises if they indicate any other CO will offer the same settlement as the LDS.  They keep mentioning the LDS is a framework for other COs.  I highly doubt that and believe they are not being truthful as I expect they also know other COs will not pay the same settlement rate.

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

They keep mentioning the LDS is a framework for other COs. 

Other COs do NOT have the situation LDS has.

1) LDS was, in effect, the SINGLE Chartering Organization for all their units. No other group is like that. As was pointed out by the attorney for the Methodists and Catholics (ad hoc committees): the CO wasn't The United Methodist Church of America. It was UMC Church of Smalltown, USA. It wasn't the Diocese of Dallas or even the Roman Catholic Church, it was St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA.

2) LDS' price point was around $100,000 (250 million / 2500) with $100 BILLION in assets. As I said before: for them $250 million is a rounding error. Asking St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA to come up with $100,000 is a LOT different.

[Eagle1993]

Just now, CynicalScouter said:

Other COs do NOT have the situation LDS has.

1) LDS was, in effect, the SINGLE Chartering Organization for all their units. No other group is like that. As was pointed out by the attorney for the Methodists and Catholics (ad hoc committees): the CO wasn't The United Methodist Church of America. It was UMC Church of Smalltown, USA. It wasn't the Diocese of Dallas or even the Roman Catholic Church, it was St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA.

2) LDS' price point was around $100,000 (250 million / 2500) with $100 BILLION in assets. As I said before: for them $250 million is a rounding error. Asking St. Paul's of Smalltown, USA to come up with $100,000 is a LOT different.

100% agree ... I wouldn't be surprised if all of the other COs combined do not hit the $250M LDS offered.  BSA & Coalition are offering false promises of increases they have not delivered on.  They got the easy one (the one with the most money and biggest risk with centralized funding.   If BSA wants good relationships with COs, perhaps their counsel stops saying expect more settlements using the LDS as a framework. 

[Life]

26 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Is there a "crying" emoji?  Based on the way this is unfolding, Pro se was a wise move on my part.  I cannot imagine a law firm sending 60% of $3500 (or less) to a client with any explanation.  How would that cover letter read?

Let’s not forget tax. 

[CynicalScouter]

Kosnoff is claiming that with no way to get 2/3rds (now that the $3500 box remains) that the confirmation hearing will never happen.

Here is where I have a two questions:

1) EVEN IF the vote comes back 99% against, it was my understanding that confirmation hearing will still take place because that is where the BSA will attempt to get the toggle cramdown to save itself.

2) I was not listening in at the time, but was the question resolved at the front end to treat those accepting the $3500 as a separate class altogether?

 

[CynicalScouter]

Century is now submitting its own proposed solicitation package in the form of edits to the BSA's plan. Very few changes.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/94567283-c3b5-4a90-b3fa-f3f76f68e498_6415.pdf

1) Law firms must provide a specific document showing they have to power to vote on behalf of every client. This would mean thousands of powers of attorney or similar that specifically state the claimant allows the lawyer to vote the ballot.

2) The (Century) want the power as a "party in interest" to demand those documents.

3) All attorneys will certify their actions and there are mentions of professional codes of conduct. In other words, this sets up potential attorney disciplinary proceedings if it turns out lawyers are voting ballots without the specific authorization.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[johnsch322]

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Kosnoff is claiming that with no way to get 2/3rds (now that the $3500 box remains) that the confirmation hearing will never happen.

Here is where I have a two questions:

1) EVEN IF the vote comes back 99% against, it was my understanding that confirmation hearing will still take place because that is where the BSA will attempt to get the toggle cramdown to save itself.

2) I was not listening in at the time, but was the question resolved at the front end to treat those accepting the $3500 as a separate class altogether?

 

My hope is for the cram down. 

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

My hope is for the cram down. 

I have to think in the end the judge is never, ever going to simply let BSA bleed out of cash and die. So yes, and I'll acknowledge it has never happened in the context of sexual abuse based bankruptcies, that in the end the judge will order BSA to pay in the $220 million (or however much it has left at that point) to a settlement trustee and be done with it.

That of course leaves the LCs completely up creeks without paddles and will immediately/within a month lead to a dozen LCs filing their own bankruptcies.