johnsch322 Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 29 minutes ago, fred8033 said: "Prosecure all perpetrators." Expired criminal SOLs can't be extended. That's the law. Liquidate LCs ... LCs are not in bankruptcy right now. So, it's not their chapter 11 or chapter 7. Only BSAs. No matter the route this goes, there is no adequate result. Plaintiffs expect millions. It's just not there. BSA does not have the assets. The funds just are not there. Even the LCs don't really have the assets. ... I doubt insurance companies even have enough to give each of the 98,000 plaintiffs a million. ... This whole bankruptcy is arguing over thousands or tens of thousands. ... Only the law firms will do well. IMHO ... The real question is whether BSA as a company has a future public benefit. If so, helping it emerge from bankruptcy is a public good. There are not 98,000 claimants the recognized figure is 82,500. Even if every one of those cases were able to go to court not all would get an award. Not all of those awards would be for a million. And some of the awards would be upwards of a million. Insurance companies have the money but the BSA cut a deal with Hartford which set the bar for other insurance companies. Out of the whole settlement offer that is what angers me personally the most. If the insurance companies are not part of the settlement there will be much more for survivors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 minute ago, johnsch322 said: There are not 98,000 claimants the recognized figure is 82,500. Even if every one of those cases were able to go to court not all would get an award. Not all of those awards would be for a million. And some of the awards would be upwards of a million. Insurance companies have the money but the BSA cut a deal with Hartford which set the bar for other insurance companies. Out of the whole settlement offer that is what angers me personally the most. If the insurance companies are not part of the settlement there will be much more for survivors. Agreed. ... And I used the wrong number. I thought it was in the 90+ thousand. 98000 was in my head. I agree that insurance companies should not be part of the bankruptcy. Pull out the BSA assets that BSA can survive without. Then, let creditors / lawsuits fight over that amount AND continue insurance claims. I'm not sure it even needs a CSA victim agreement. The question is how much cash can be preserved to pay past liabilities. The sooner done the better. I believe BSA is long-term viable if it can get past historic liabilities. I also believe more cash is available if BSA continues (chapter 11). If BSA is put in chapter 7, then victims get paid behind a few other categories like pensions. That would extend the bankruptcy and eat a lot of the assets. From what I understand, the best path is a BSA only chapter 11 bankruptcy. I just hope this moves on soon. Every year this continues is painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ72 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 26 minutes ago, fred8033 said: From what I understand, the best path is a BSA only chapter 11 bankruptcy When a car salesman says, ‘This is a great deal’ my first thought is ‘For whom, you or me? Same here. The ‘best’ path forward for the BSA is the current proposed plan. Great deal for BSA.........and The LCs make out like bandits in the current plan with releases granted , even to LCs in open states. These Open state LCs should not be given civil releases. They should have to fend for themselves in court. The proposed plan is absolutely NOT the best path forward for survivors in open states with high value cases. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DJ72 said: When a car salesman says, ‘This is a great deal’ my first thought is ‘For whom, you or me? Same here. The ‘best’ path forward for the BSA is the current proposed plan. Great deal for BSA.........and The LCs make out like bandits in the current plan with releases granted , even to LCs in open states. These Open state LCs should not be given civil releases. They should have to fend for themselves in court. The proposed plan is absolutely NOT the best path forward for survivors in open states with high value cases. You misunderstand me. When I write that the best path is a BSA only bankruptcy, it does not include the LCs, COs or insurance companies. The LCs are independent companies that own property, pay taxes and run similar to a franchisee. I'm even confused how a company not going thru bankruptcy can end up getting protection from the bankruptcy of another company. The CO's are their own companies too. The insurance companies would still exist to pay liabilities from the pre-bankruptcy BSA. This case is so complex that the only path to make reasonable progress seems to be a BSA only bankruptcy. Edited November 22, 2021 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, fred8033 said: Agreed. ... And I used the wrong number. I thought it was in the 90+ thousand. 98000 was in my head. I agree that insurance companies should not be part of the bankruptcy. Pull out the BSA assets that BSA can survive without. Then, let creditors / lawsuits fight over that amount AND continue insurance claims. I'm not sure it even needs a CSA victim agreement. The question is how much cash can be preserved to pay past liabilities. The sooner done the better. I believe BSA is long-term viable if it can get past historic liabilities. I also believe more cash is available if BSA continues (chapter 11). If BSA is put in chapter 7, then victims get paid behind a few other categories like pensions. That would extend the bankruptcy and eat a lot of the assets. From what I understand, the best path is a BSA only chapter 11 bankruptcy. I just hope this moves on soon. Every year this continues is painful. I agree. The TCC would have endorsed the first proposal if the Hartford deal was not included. That proposal had even less money in it from the LC’s so LC’s would have been better off. But no the BSA sided up with the Coalition thinking it would be an easier yes vote and my opinion will it will end up a no. This will cost not BSA more money but will hurt the LC’s. Edited November 22, 2021 by johnsch322 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 2 hours ago, fred8033 said: I feel for the situation. When you write "we have to be part of the bankruptcy", I see that emotionally and for debate. I just don't see it legally unless your state opens liability before BSA bankruptcy finalizes. IMHO ... this is an frustrating point of law ... I just don't understand how expired liabilities can be legislatively re-created. The Supreme Court has created a really weird situation allowing expired civil SOLs to be re-opened because they are different than criminal SOLs. I'm not an attorney. But I have been informed that the SOL can be tolled based on several potential grounds. With that in mind, a lawsuit may still be allowed to proceed in a SOL state. Therefore, releases in bankruptcy are necessary. And while the compensation is much lower in a grey or closed state, the potential for a valid claim remains and has to be settled. Personally, I'm disgusted by the inequity that allows a minimal assault in an open state to be more highly compensated than a victim of repeated severe assault in a closed state. It doesn't surprise me in this country, and this age where everything seems politically driven. But I really can't allow myself emotionally to even care anymore. I'm just pissed off that BSA indicated we would be fairly compensated and the reality is that we will likely see pocket change. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 Well, we may now see if KR’s and some of the aggregators actions are legal. I expect some of what is being provided was what Kosnoff has been alluding to on Twitter. Kosnoff on Twitter Dear friends, thanks for your thoughts and prayers, well-wishes and support. I want you to know that my deposition was probably the most gratifying day of my 41 year career. They will try to suppress my testimony and evidence from public view. They will fail. A hammer blow 4 U.…. You gotta wait til herroner rules on the motions to seal from public view. This may take a while. Hopefully not because this balloting mess has been struck today by a thermonuclear created by the Coalition. Lucas has been dragged through the mud when he deserves a medal. KR’s firm is now asking the judge to seal the discovery. Haven’t seen anything regarding the deposition. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7e135f1b-e37f-4862-97ca-52df8b10704d_7395.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 On 11/15/2021 at 6:32 PM, RememberSchiff said: STATEMENT OF THE TORT CLAIMANTS’ COMMITTEE WITH RESPECT TO DEBTORS’ MOTION FOR ENTRY OF AN ORDER (I) ENFORCING THE SOLICITATION PROCEDURES ORDER, (II) ENFORCING SECTION 1103 OF THE BANKRUPTCY CODE AGAINST TORT CLAIMANTS’ COMMITTEE, AND (III) GRANTING RELATED RELIEF https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/2b91f52b-5b99-47de-9089-24c1725498f7_7216.pdf Above also includes the Agreed Interim Order in Exhibit A. Nov 17, Hearing https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/9560bec6-f6b7-43a6-81f6-5aff038b3489_7215.pdf Discussion of possible additions to interim order? Debtors’ Emergency Motion for Entry of an Order (I) Enforcing the Solicitation Procedures Order, (II) Enforcing Section 1103 of the Bankruptcy Code Against the Tort Claimants’ Committee, and (III) Granting Related Relief (D.I. 7118, filed 11/10/21) So ordered https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/1c19f2b8-7e01-4c75-a187-620fa4f4d081_7401.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted November 23, 2021 Share Posted November 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said: KR’s firm is now asking the judge to seal the discovery. Haven’t seen anything regarding the deposition. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7e135f1b-e37f-4862-97ca-52df8b10704d_7395.pdf IMHO. Easier to seal a document than redact. During the course of this case, requests for sealing court proceedings appear automatically granted (good luck getting the minutes of hearings). And other anticipated bench rulings have been deferred to continued mediation. Despite his compensation, I would not be surprised if mediator Paul Finn resigned due to frustration with work load. My $0.01 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elitts Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 On 11/21/2021 at 7:05 PM, DJ72 said: When a car salesman says, ‘This is a great deal’ my first thought is ‘For whom, you or me? Same here. The ‘best’ path forward for the BSA is the current proposed plan. Great deal for BSA.........and The LCs make out like bandits in the current plan with releases granted , even to LCs in open states. These Open state LCs should not be given civil releases. They should have to fend for themselves in court. The proposed plan is absolutely NOT the best path forward for survivors in open states with high value cases. I think that's pretty standard with any mass-tort type situation. Those with the most best cases and best documentation (therefore the most likely to win in an independent suit) end up subsidizing the people with the worst cases and less comprehensive documentation. But even for open states I don't think it's as clear cut as some folks do. If you have a strong case against an LC with relatively few cases, you are probably getting hosed by any nationwide deal, but if you are in an open state with a LC facing hundreds or thousands of claims, you wouldn't be in a much better scenario than with the national settlement. On 11/21/2021 at 8:18 PM, Eagle1970 said: But I really can't allow myself emotionally to even care anymore. I'm just pissed off that BSA indicated we would be fairly compensated and the reality is that we will likely see pocket change. This is one of those issues that a number of people seem to really be hung up on. I understand being frustrated that what you thought they meant by "equitable compensation" isn't what's going to be happening here, but it's not like the BSA wrote that with the intention of misleading people. When this all started, they thought 5k-10k was the upper limit of potential victims. That would have meant a 150k-300k payment on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 3 hours ago, elitts said: This is one of those issues that a number of people seem to really be hung up on. I understand being frustrated that what you thought they meant by "equitable compensation" isn't what's going to be happening here, but it's not like the BSA wrote that with the intention of misleading people. When this all started, they thought 5k-10k was the upper limit of potential victims. That would have meant a 150k-300k payment on average. I don't know what they really thought. I would have thought, with constant media and commercial attention that there would be hundreds of thousands. And I also thought there would be large settlements from insurers in the near term. So, I absolutely hold them responsible for misleading me and others. At this stage of my life, I definitely did not need to rip this back open. But when I read that, I thought it would finally be time for some justice. Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, elitts said: This is one of those issues that a number of people seem to really be hung up on. I understand being frustrated that what you thought they meant by "equitable compensation" isn't what's going to be happening here, but it's not like the BSA wrote that with the intention of misleading people. When this all started, they thought 5k-10k was the upper limit of potential victims. That would have meant a 150k-300k payment on average. "Equitable compensation" to survivors has never been the goal of the BSA in this bankruptcy. The only goal that the BSA had was to escape from underneath the liability for the least amount of money possible. The upper limit of 5 to 10K of potential victims was arrogance on their part. If that truly was the amount that they had to pay it still would not have been 150-300k payment on average just do the math...225K (average of 150 to 350) X 10,000 = 2.25 Billion. Initially BSA told LC's and CO's they would not have to contribute and they negotiated with Hartford for a max of 650M so where was that money coming from? "Equitable compensation" are just public relations terms trying to make the public feel for the BSA. Edited November 25, 2021 by johnsch322 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Some pretty major filings on the court docket. The TCC is asking for an independent Ombudsman to be appointed to lead the voting. They are asking for two additional weeks. There are other documents filed under seal that are used to support this. US Trustee is objecting as are others. Another law firm has filed support. What lead to this. Signs are pointing to Kosnoff’s deposition and apparently evidence of some questionable eballots. (Not court approved). There is now official claims of eballots not accurately recording votes. If this is not granted, there is a chance that the vote could simply have to restart from the beginning…. Months of delay. Not sure what should be done, but the examples given show the disfunction going on right now. What a mess. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/dd0d8d63-5772-4b78-b3a0-5c03a45a5b20_7447.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 And a bit more interesting tidbits The BSA has hired a lobbying firm to go to Washington in an attempt to prevent the passage of the bankruptcy reform bill. If the bill passes, it could completely stop the ability of BSA to include COs or LCs in their bankruptcy plan. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-influence/2021/11/24/boy-scouts-will-lobby-on-bill-to-curb-tactics-used-in-bankruptcy-proceedings-799099 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ72 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Vote has been cast. Will continue to watch the clown show.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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