Chapter 11 Announced - Part 6 - Plan 5.0/TCC Plan TBD

[yknot]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

But, perhaps I should add addressing any physical problems as well as possible?  I still contend that the monetary elements should be in the form of actual help, whether physical or mental; not just a big chunk of dollars.  I am sorry you find that insulting, but that was and is not the intent.  

There have been insurance awards for anal fistulas of up to $50 million,  so even just focusing on the physical problems caused by abuse would still be staggering. I'm not sure what you mean by limiting monetary elements to actual help in the case of physical damage. Many of these things have to be corrected surgically and have comparatively high failure rates. What would be considered "actual help" for living with fecal incontinence as a result of being raped by your Scoutmaster?  What is the impact on a young man, an Eagle Scout maybe, hoping to date and have a family while dealing with that condition? Or if by some grace of God he gets married but is unable or too embarrassed to camp with his kids? Would he be able to join the military? Get a corporate job? Some people have had to endure multiple surgeries and recoveries. If just 500 survivors out of 82,000 were awarded even just $10 million for trying to cope and lead a life with that kind of physical damage, that alone would be $5 billion dollars -- far higher than the dollars being discussed in this case for everything. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by yknot

[Eagle1970]

Reading this leaves me so sad and sorrowful for other victims, and especially those who have been severely wounded.  Even the best outcome in compensation won't begin to help.  Actually, nothing can help.  Most of us are older now, and our lives have already been twisted in knots from what we experienced.  The best we can do is to underscore the necessity of ending the abuse.  And if safety cannot be assured, I don't have a lot of optimism for BSA or other youth groups.  I'm probably off-topic, mods, but I don't know how else to even respond.  I'm just sorry.

[DJ72]

58 minutes ago, yknot said:

There have been insurance awards for anal fistulas of up to $50 million,  so even just focusing on the physical problems caused by abuse would still be staggering. I'm not sure what you mean by limiting monetary elements to actual help in the case of physical damage. Many of these things have to be corrected surgically and have comparatively high failure rates. What would be considered "actual help" for living with fecal incontinence as a result of being raped by your Scoutmaster?  What is the impact on a young man, an Eagle Scout maybe, hoping to date and have a family while dealing with that condition? Or if by some grace of God he gets married but is unable or too embarrassed to camp with his kids? Would he be able to join the military? Get a corporate job? Some people have had to endure multiple surgeries and recoveries. If just 500 survivors out of 82,000 were awarded even just $10 million for trying to cope and lead a life with that kind of physical damage, that alone would be $5 billion dollars -- far higher than the dollars being discussed in this case for everything. 

Your comments gives the best explanation about why the proposed plan is woefully inadequate.  The best possible action would be chapter 7.  Liquidate everything owned by the BSA and LCs  No releases for COs, LCs or insurance companies until all is paid out. The BSA is beyond fixing and should cease to exist.  Prosecute all perpetrators. 

[johnsch322]

4 hours ago, DJ72 said:

The BSA is beyond fixing and should cease to exist.  Prosecute all perpetrators. 

I will not go as far as BSA should cease to exist but I honestly do not believe they can police themselves.  If the largest source of CSA to date happened in the BSA and if the BSA was truly repentant why would they not adopt the YPT that the TCC is recommending?  

If the BSA wanted fair and equitable compensation why would they cut deals with Hartford and set a precedent by doing so?  Same could be said for the LDS church when both have and can afford much more? 

If the Local Councils want the benefits of bankruptcy without having to go thru bankruptcy why are they not contributing substantially more for that privilege?

In my honest opinion I believe it is because they are arrogant by nature.  They have a we know better attitude so we will do as we want and expect everyone to follow along.  

Same for some of the contributors to this forum.  They have no empathy, no compassion and no sense of justice for anyone but themselves.  These same posters if they were hit by a truck while in their car and had major injuries would never accept just let us fix your car, and pay your medical bills.  They would be screaming about their pain and suffering, lost wages, and the mental anguish they suffer now and in the future.  They would hire the best personal injury lawyer they could find (at probably a 40% contingency fee) and when they received their portion of a 1 to 10 million dollar or more settlement would tell everyone what a great lawyer they have.  

The difference is if that happened to them so they would be entitled.  We the survivors they believe are entitled to less.

PS most of the perpetrators are out of the reach of the law due to Statute of Limitations or they are dead.

Edited November 21, 2021 by johnsch322

[DuctTape]

Attributing motive to others or describing them in prejudicial terms when they have differing opinions or are making decisions one doesn't agree with is wholly unfair IMO. I understand  principals in the case have personal and passionate attachments to the outcomes which can lead to personal and emotional attributions of motive etc... of the other side and of others not involved. This But this is a negotiation of a legal case. As stated by Aristotle, "the law is reason, free from from passion." Of course this has the result of fueling the attribution of others by those passionate folks who are personally affected. 

[DJ72]

10 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

PS most of the perpetrators are out of the reach of the law due to Statute of Limitations or they are dead.

This is the reason the cases never should have been co-mingled in the proposed settlement. The cases in open states should be dealt with at the highest punitive level with agreements by the BSA to be an open book and to aid in the location and in prosecution of the living offenders.   It is unthinkable to give any release in an open state.  The BSA needs to HURT over this. 

[johnsch322]

21 minutes ago, DJ72 said:

This is the reason the cases never should have been co-mingled in the proposed settlement. The cases in open states should be dealt with at the highest punitive level with agreements by the BSA to be an open book and to aid in the location and in prosecution of the living offenders.   It is unthinkable to give any release in an open state.  The BSA needs to HURT over this. 

The statute of limitations for criminal conviction will keep most of the abusers from prosecution both in open and closed states. What would be better for us in open states is if there are ono releases given to LC's, CO's and insurance company's.

[Eagle1970]

5 hours ago, DJ72 said:

This is the reason the cases never should have been co-mingled in the proposed settlement. The cases in open states should be dealt with at the highest punitive level with agreements by the BSA to be an open book and to aid in the location and in prosecution of the living offenders.   It is unthinkable to give any release in an open state.  The BSA needs to HURT over this. 

The state of my abuse, Missouri, allows for prosecution without SOL but excludes civil actions, since the legislators are in bed with the insurers.  Wrap yourself around that one.  The state can get even but the victim gets nothing.  I could risk my safety and that of my family to prosecute my attacker, and could not even be reimbursed for gas money to get to court. 

To your point, laws are changing before our eyes and lookback windows are being created.  So, to the extent that is on the table, we have to be part of the bankruptcy.

 

[Eagle1970]

9 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Attributing motive to others or describing them in prejudicial terms when they have differing opinions or are making decisions one doesn't agree with is wholly unfair IMO. I understand  principals in the case have personal and passionate attachments to the outcomes which can lead to personal and emotional attributions of motive etc... of the other side and of others not involved. This But this is a negotiation of a legal case. As stated by Aristotle, "the law is reason, free from from passion." Of course this has the result of fueling the attribution of others by those passionate folks who are personally affected. 

Any victim can go to town on this forum, as far as I am concerned.  There will be little justice in this case.  And to those who were tortured by leaders, or in my case, BSA employed camp counselor, and are in a closed or grey state, working through this is about all they are going to get.

 

[DuctTape]

28 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Any victim can go to town on this forum, as far as I am concerned.  There will be little justice in this case.  And to those who were tortured by leaders, or in my case, BSA employed camp counselor, and are in a closed or grey state, working through this is about all they are going to get.

 

I hear you, and in general agree. Where I draw the line is when it targets other members here.

[johnsch322]

25 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I hear you, and in general agree. Where I draw the line is when it targets other members here.

As you are referring to my post I will tell you that I have read multiple post from multiple people discounting what survivors are due under the law. We are due compensation for pain and suffering as would an accident victim would be and anyone saying less is saying we as survivors are due less than others. There is no one throwing money at survivors.  As I have said this is a line of thought I have read from multiple posters. 

[vol_scouter]

48 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

As you are referring to my post I will tell you that I have read multiple post from multiple people discounting what survivors are due under the law. We are due compensation for pain and suffering as would an accident victim would be and anyone saying less is saying we as survivors are due less than others. There is no one throwing money at survivors.  As I have said this is a line of thought I have read from multiple posters. 

As has been pointed out many times, the whole of Scouting does not have enough money to compensate the claimants as they wish to be compensated.

I think that most if not all on these forums are sympathetic to victims and would like for them to receive treatment for their injuries - physical and emotional.  

The proposed settlement will hurt the local councils and the BSA.  It cannot pay what most wish/demand.  I want the BSA to go forward and hope that the proposal is approved.  I respect other views.

[fred8033]

23 hours ago, DJ72 said:

Your comments gives the best explanation about why the proposed plan is woefully inadequate.  The best possible action would be chapter 7.  Liquidate everything owned by the BSA and LCs  No releases for COs, LCs or insurance companies until all is paid out. The BSA is beyond fixing and should cease to exist.  Prosecute all perpetrators. 

• "Prosecure all perpetrators."  Expired criminal SOLs can't be extended.  That's the law.  
• Liquidate LCs ... LCs are not in bankruptcy right now.  So, it's not their chapter 11 or chapter 7.  Only BSAs.  

No matter the route this goes, there is no adequate result.  Plaintiffs expect millions.  It's just not there.  BSA does not have the assets.  The funds just are not there.   Even the LCs don't really have the assets.  ... I doubt insurance companies even have enough to give each of the 98,000 plaintiffs a million.  ... This whole bankruptcy is arguing over thousands or tens of thousands.  ... Only the law firms will do well.

IMHO ... The real question is whether BSA as a company has a future public benefit.  If so, helping it emerge from bankruptcy is a public good.  

Edited November 21, 2021 by fred8033

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

The state of my abuse, Missouri, allows for prosecution without SOL but excludes civil actions, since the legislators are in bed with the insurers.  Wrap yourself around that one.  The state can get even but the victim gets nothing.  I could risk my safety and that of my family to prosecute my attacker, and could not even be reimbursed for gas money to get to court. 

To your point, laws are changing before our eyes and lookback windows are being created.  So, to the extent that is on the table, we have to be part of the bankruptcy.

I feel for the situation.  

When you write "we have to be part of the bankruptcy", I see that emotionally and for debate.  I just don't see it legally unless your state opens liability before BSA bankruptcy finalizes. 

IMHO ... this is an frustrating point of law ...  I just don't understand how expired liabilities can be legislatively re-created.  The Supreme Court has created a really weird situation allowing expired civil SOLs to be re-opened because they are different than criminal SOLs.  

 

[johnsch322]

26 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

As has been pointed out many times, the whole of Scouting does not have enough money to compensate the claimants as they wish to be compensated.

I think that most if not all on these forums are sympathetic to victims and would like for them to receive treatment for their injuries - physical and emotional.  

The proposed settlement will hurt the local councils and the BSA.  It cannot pay what most wish/demand.  I want the BSA to go forward and hope that the proposal is approved.  I respect other views.

So in your opinion I am only entitled to treatment for emotional and physical injuries?  Nothing for pain and suffering for the last 54 years? Nothing for a repaired sphincter that has trouble holding back fecal matter?  The docs say the sphincter is as good as it will get. 
I have never said there was enough assets to pay what might be accomplished if the BSA was not in Bankruptcy. What I will say is that LC’s CO’s and Insurance company’s are not contributing enough to get released from their liabilities.

I am sure that you hope it will get approved as I hope it won’t.