Chapter 11 Announced - Part 6 - Plan 5.0/TCC Plan TBD

[skeptic]

Some seem not to understand that the turnip is done, and the other vegies have little to offer that is real.  We all know the Catholic Church has its own mess, that is interrelated with this one.  As for the Methodists, the idea they somehow have deep pockets is ludicrous.  Anyone that is a member of the local churchs understands the edge on which most of them teeter.  

[johnsch322]

30 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Much of it may have to do with the stress on the two largest remaining CO's and their concerns about the future.  That is the Methodists and the Catholics.  Our unit is experiencing a lot of frustration, and even some anger in response to the recharter issues.  And most of the pressure is from outside, caused by and broght to them by the whacked out legal system and , IMO impossible expectations of a few claimants, most that appear to care little for the broader issues involved.  And I am not dismissing legitimae survivors, only looking at what seems to me reality, versus pie in the sky wishes and expectations.  The old saw that "two wrongs do not make a right" seems, to me, to be applicable with this whole mess.  But, I keep hoping that our tired lady with the scale will find some relief somehow.  

So I ask you what are "impossible expectations" versus reasonable expectation in dollars? Also what are the "two wrongs do not make a right"? Are you saying the abuse was wrong and just compensation is wrong?

[vol_scouter]

5 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Even at 800 million, it is only ~3 million per council. Very affordable for them. Some would do more, some less based on the factors established. 

That will likely not fly at all.  My council is a medium sized council who lost about 50% of its members through covid and chapter 11 PR.  This sum would be devastating.  We would likely fight in court and/or file chapter 11.  There just is not the money out there that the TCC says.

[vol_scouter]

31 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Some seem not to understand that the turnip is done, and the other vegies have little to offer that is real.  We all know the Catholic Church has its own mess, that is interrelated with this one.  As for the Methodists, the idea they somehow have deep pockets is ludicrous.  Anyone that is a member of the local churchs understands the edge on which most of them teeter.  

Have been a Methodist my entire life and there is no money to be had in the local churches (many are supported by larger churches who are themselves barely making the budget).  

[fred8033]

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Much of it may have to do with the stress on the two largest remaining CO's and their concerns about the future.  That is the Methodists and the Catholics.

I don't understand talking about Catholic and Methodist as two of the parties.   These are the two largest "categories" of COs.   Well established legally separate --> 150 Catholic dioceses --> 32,000 Methodist congregations.

• Some with recent bankruptcies that complicate / erase past "legal" liability.  
• Some with their own CSA settlements that could overlap. 
• No single structure to get more cash or to bring in each of these to the settlement.  

Only way for BSA to exit bankruptcy is BSA only.  I just don't see CO protection.  

On the flip side, I'm not sure how many of the 32,000+ individual entities would actually be sued and/or have to pay in their own case.  I'm betting of BSA's 80,000+ cases that the majority would have trouble on a CO case-by-case basis.  So, I'm betting many of the COs would not feel a need to get protection. 

[skeptic]

20 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

So I ask you what are "impossible expectations" versus reasonable expectation in dollars? Also what are the "two wrongs do not make a right"? Are you saying the abuse was wrong and just compensation is wrong?

There is no amount of maney that will "fix" the real pain, and certainly, as stated before, fixing societal issues from decades ago at the expense of current youth is just as wrong.  But, as I have noted more than once, I am looking for balance, and not destroying the program for today's youth to pay lawyers and somehow actually help survivors with real conseling and so on as possible, not just throw money and say it is good.  Because, it will not be good for those that were actually affected, and to expect more money to do that is foolish.  Just me view, and perhaps my view of fair, and fair is far different than you or some others.  Agree, ignore, or state your own views.  We all look at things differently, and we all deal with traumas in our own personal manners.  I just want this to be over and be able to move forward with our current youth without the spectre hanging over us constantly.  Adhere to YP, and do not let our guards down, as there will always be predators that will try to sneak in.  

 

Have a good day.  

[fred8033]

54 minutes ago, skeptic said:

As for the Methodists, the idea they somehow have deep pockets is ludicrous.  Anyone that is a member of the local churchs understands the edge on which most of them teeter.  

Methodist deep pockets are the assets (building / acreage).   It's a mismatch.  No liquidity, but huge assets.

It's why I wonder if individual Methodist churches might be better off on their own in this.  Would lawyers represent on a contingent basis cases from 30+, 40+ years ago against a congregation with little revenue, but only has a building.  It would be expensive and complicated to pursue.  Plus, the congregation would be forced in to bankruptcy and need to argue the building is protected as a fundamental for all the good they do for the community. 

I just don't see thousands of individual CO court cases happening.  Hundreds?  Maybe.  Thousands?  No.

Edited December 14, 2021 by fred8033

[johnsch322]

3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Methodist deep pockets are the assets (building / acreage).   It's a mismatch.  No liquidity, but huge assets.

It's why I wonder if individual Methodist churches might be better off on their own in this.  Would lawyers represent on a contingent basis cases from 30+, 40+ years ago against a congregation with little revenue, but only has a building.  It would be expensive and complicated to pursue.  Plus, the congregation would be forced in to bankruptcy and need to argue the building is protected as a fundamental for all the good they do for the community. 

I just don't see thousands of individual CO court cases happening.  Hundreds?  Maybe.  Thousands?  No.

Sorry quoting wrong person.

Edited December 14, 2021 by johnsch322

[johnsch322]

9 minutes ago, skeptic said:

There is no amount of maney that will "fix" the real pain, and certainly, as stated before, fixing societal issues from decades ago at the expense of current youth is just as wrong.  But, as I have noted more than once, I am looking for balance, and not destroying the program for today's youth to pay lawyers and somehow actually help survivors with real conseling and so on as possible, not just throw money and say it is good.  Because, it will not be good for those that were actually affected, and to expect more money to do that is foolish.  Just me view, and perhaps my view of fair, and fair is far different than you or some others.  Agree, ignore, or state your own views.  We all look at things differently, and we all deal with traumas in our own personal manners.  I just want this to be over and be able to move forward with our current youth without the spectre hanging over us constantly.  Adhere to YP, and do not let our guards down, as there will always be predators that will try to sneak in.  

 

Have a good day.  

I do not want to beat a dead horse but you make statements with insinuations without real numbers or meaning.  It was just 2 simple questions.

PS I know money and all survivors know money will not fix pain.  It is compensation for the pain.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by johnsch322

[Eagle1993]

Various updates today.  I didn't attend hearing as was working.

- AIG said there is no way to hold current schedule, min delay of 4 weeks required.  Discovery not nearly complete.

- TCC is indicating that voting may need to restart due to substancial changes via settlement mid vote.

- DOJ is stating that vote is almost certainly required  and will need to be clearly told what % of the settlement is now based on the growth of scouting.  (Note that a lot of new settlements are based on scouting growth).

- TCC is indicating they will be seeking discovery into mediation, specifically about how a mediator got his name on the plan. 

- Sounds like the judge is not going to require AIS to send an email as she doesn't have authority.  She can disqualify lawyers ...

- BSA lawyers are saying any further delay will result in less money for survivors.  I somewhat question that as National BSA is only making up $106M of the $2.6B pot ... so even if they contribute nothing, it is a small percentage now.  Probably better to get it correct than quickly rush to a solution.

[skeptic]

13 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Sorry quoting wrong person.

It annoys me that some feel that today's churches should abandon their property assets, from where they continue to do outreach to the larger communities, just to fund the mistakes and judgment errors from decades ago.  Our over a century and a half old church has a half dozen major charitable entities that use their site for almost nothing, tending to drug and alcohol remediation, and running a preschool with low costs to parents, supporting food banks, supporting world wide mission outreach, and so on.  Just because the buildings may be worth money today, and even more so the properties on which many sit, does not mean they can give it all to funding those past mistakes.  Not fair to today's "victims".  The old adage, to stiff Peter to pay Paul may apply here.  But we are really looking at the broader issue of self centeredness versus community cohesiveness.  Who was it that said, "It takes a village"?  Well, too many want to destroy the village for their own benefits only.  Again, just my old fogie perspective.

 

[Eagle1970]

14 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It annoys me that some feel that today's churches should abandon their property assets, from where they continue to do outreach to the larger communities, just to fund the mistakes and judgment errors from decades ago.  Our over a century and a half old church has a half dozen major charitable entities that use their site for almost nothing, tending to drug and alcohol remediation, and running a preschool with low costs to parents, supporting food banks, supporting world wide mission outreach, and so on.  Just because the buildings may be worth money today, and even more so the properties on which many sit, does not mean they can give it all to funding those past mistakes.  Not fair to today's "victims".  The old adage, to stiff Peter to pay Paul may apply here.  But we are really looking at the broader issue of self centeredness versus community cohesiveness.  Who was it that said, "It takes a village"?  Well, too many want to destroy the village for their own benefits only.  Again, just my old fogie perspective.

 

It's like the guy who murdered his family 40 years ago and then went on to lead a clean life.  He is still responsible for his crime and has a debt to society.  Without the Catholic Church, I would have never been in the situation where my abuser could get to me.  Had I been able to file suit, they would clearly have been a party.  Yet, due to SoL, I have never been compensated for the twists and turns my life has taken as a result.  Basically, the church escaped on a technicality, as did the BSA.  I commend churches for the good they may do.  And I hold them responsible for sins of their past.  They, and the BSA are simply reaping the pain they caused in the past, in the form of low membership.

[yknot]

26 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It annoys me that some feel that today's churches should abandon their property assets, from where they continue to do outreach to the larger communities, just to fund the mistakes and judgment errors from decades ago.  Our over a century and a half old church has a half dozen major charitable entities that use their site for almost nothing, tending to drug and alcohol remediation, and running a preschool with low costs to parents, supporting food banks, supporting world wide mission outreach, and so on.  Just because the buildings may be worth money today, and even more so the properties on which many sit, does not mean they can give it all to funding those past mistakes.  Not fair to today's "victims".  The old adage, to stiff Peter to pay Paul may apply here.  But we are really looking at the broader issue of self centeredness versus community cohesiveness.  Who was it that said, "It takes a village"?  Well, too many want to destroy the village for their own benefits only.  Again, just my old fogie perspective.

 

I don't know how UMC oversight works but in my area there is a state conference that oversees the individual congregations. That Council has had the power to consolidate and sell properties to some extent. There are a number of failing churches with valuable property. It seems that those properties could be sold off to save other functional congregations. Not that I'd want to see that happen -- they are all historic buildings to start -- but many of these denominations are in the same boat as BSA is with camps. BSA has excess camp properties to serve a membership level that no longer exists. Many of these churches have the same issue -- buildings for people who are no longer there in any number. 

[skeptic]

We have some of that "excess" property.  But the church is woking within the large community to turn it into outreach options for the homeless and others.  They do not want to simply sell it for the dollars, especially to turn over to the the larger national level for sins of others.  Our unit has never had any claims, nor have most in our area.  Again, it is the view of community versus individuals in most of these cases, and too many do not care, as some have accused me in regard to the victims, about the broader picture or group(s).  Balance.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I don't know how UMC oversight works but in my area there is a state conference that oversees the individual congregations. That Council has had the power to consolidate and sell properties to some extent. There are a number of failing churches with valuable property. It seems that those properties could be sold off to save other functional congregations. Not that I'd want to see that happen -- they are all historic buildings to start -- but many of these denominations are in the same boat as BSA is with camps. BSA has excess camp properties to serve a membership level that no longer exists. Many of these churches have the same issue -- buildings for people who are no longer there in any number. 

I'd be interested in more information state conference having power to consolidate / sell property.  From what I read, that is probably more about the goodwill congregation to congregation and that the congregation wants to stay in the good graces of the state conference.    I read this to learn more about Methodist church structure.  It's only one sample though.      https://nccumc.org/treasurer/files/Incorporation.pdf 

I'm betting that, beyond cooperation, a state conference has no real power to force selling  a specific congregations property.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by fred8033