hypothetical Pack needs your help!

[johndaigler]

OK,

 

The Pack hasn't followed Program in years.

 

Most leaders are untrained and/or only mildly interested -- not mean or terrible people, just not "Scouters".

 

Webelos graduate, and then leave Scouting - maybe one moves up to the local troop each year.

 

The Pack is in the process of hooking up with a new CO (let's say: the Lions Club) - because the CO of the last 20 years (Elem. school) decided they didn't want to be partnered with The Pack.

 

The Pack hasn't had a planned budget in years.

 

Every decision, financial or otherwise, gets made using a "just in time" approach. There's nothing that resembles appreciation for BSA policies, and no Pack policies exist on any topic.

 

The Pack's Committee members are generally DLs and ADLs doing double duty, and several key roles are filled with parents of graduating Webelos.

 

If it matters, The Pack hypothetically exists in a wealthy suburb of a major city.

 

 

 

You, as an interested "Scouter" dedicated to improving the Cubs' Scouting experience, can take on any role(s) in the Pack.

 

Which job(s) do you take and why?????

 

 

THANKS for your help!

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[Bob White]

The Charter Organization Representative for the Lion's Club.

 

 

Because the pack isn't "partnered" with the CO. The CO is partnered with the BSA, and the CO owns the pack, and is responsible for selecting the right leaders and providing a scouting program to the youth it serves.

 

I realize as the CO that the pack was not following the program at the school and it is not the meeting place that determines the program plan, it's the people. I know that if they keep doing what they have always done, then they will always get what they have always gotten.

 

So I interview the current leadership, dertermine who remains a registered leader and in what position. I insist that everyone who registers makes a committment to get trained within 90-days and I make sure it happens.

 

I choose a new committee chair who is a member of the Lions and we meet with the Cubmaster monthly to make sure there is a planned program and the den leaders have all the tools they need to be successful.

 

Then I make sure we celebrate the new improved program and recognize the adult volunteers who made it happen.

 

B:)b White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Backpacker]

John,

I agree with Bob, wow, being the COR is the best position and is also the only position that can be a dual, a COR can also be the Comm. Chair. So you would have a influential role to both the CO and the pack.I started this way with my new crew until it was established and I had more administrative adults recruited. Once the pack is moving in the right direction you can relinquish one of those positions, if you desire.

[Eamonn]

Bob,

While I agree with what you have posted.

This will only work in you are a member of the Lions Club.

Also while it is desirable that the Committee Chair. Also be a Lions Club member, it is not a requirement. And yes I do know that you were giving your opinion for this hypothetical pack, and not quoting policy.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

Agreed Eamonn,

 

So hypothetically if I were not a memebr of the CO I would go to the Charter Rep, share my scouting experience with him/her, explain why I would enjoy helping the pack, and offer to help in whatever p[ostion the CR would like me to do.

 

B:)b White

 

 

 

[johndaigler]

Thanks, guys! I naively thought this was going to be a discussion between the impact of the CC and the CM!! Brand new view!!!

 

And thanks, also, for clarifying several points that "training" was terribly vague on!!

 

However, (curveball coming!), You (hypothetically, again) aren't a Lion, and for better and worse, aren't really humble enough just to offer your services to the better judgement of the COR . . .

 

Bigger impact - CC or CM?

 

jd

 

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[johndaigler]

 

BTW - Love the kinder, gentler "B:)b"!!

This Halloween, you'll probably have many fewer costumed children run screaming away from the 'ol BW nest!!!

 

 

jd

[EagleInKY]

Bigger impact - CC or CM?

 

Now, in theory, the CC should have as big (or bigger) impact. But I don't see it happening that way in most packs.

 

Without a doubt, the Cubmaster has the biggest overall impact on the program. This is because he is the one in front of the pack, inspiring the boys, encouraging the den leaders, etc. Many leaders, whether in politics, business, church or organizations, have a powerful team in the background that really makes things happen. But, if that leader can't inspire people to see his vision and follow him, it doesn't matter. So, when you ask in the terms of "bigger impact", I have to say it's the Cubmaster.

[Bob White]

Won't comment on whether I am friendlier or just sound that way when not having to defend myself against wacky allegations against me.

 

Which is better will bepend on which you skills and abilities are best suited for.

 

Curious as to what you thought was mentioned here that was vague in the training?

 

B:)b White

 

PS

Kids are supposed to run away screaming on Halloween aren't they?

 

 

 

 

[johndaigler]

I'm obviously changing thread direction, but I think BW's question is more important to more people than what the heck I'm gonna do when I start facing the reality that my troubled Pack isn't hypothetical. Perhaps, some kind "moderate" soul can set me up with a new thread.

 

I better backtrack a bit when I say there were SEVERAL things clarified HERE that were left vague in Training. Actually, in this thread, that comment pertains mostly to the role of the COR in determining leaders and the standards which leaders must meet. But I have learned more here in any given day on these clear forums than I did in Training - you name the topic, I'll give you the specific example!

 

Youth Protection WAS worthwhile because it pointed out specifics and gave details on what, and what not, to do. Professionally, I had learned most of the knowledge already and yet the concrete application to the Scouting setting made it worthwhile - though I think the little quizzes along the way and the test at the end are less than challenging.

 

I went into the other training courses with an open mind and open eyes because I had been challenged to meet that standard in a previous thread. I was determined to learn all that was offered. I tried REALLY hard to scrape every useful bit out of those four hours. It didn't work so well.

 

DL Specific and Basic Essentials were not significantly helpful.

 

Unfortunately for trainers and any instructors or teachers I deal with, I'm a tough critic. I've got decades of training as a teacher and educator so I set (unfairly?) high standards for presentors and presentations. I know they're volunteers, and therefore deserving of my thanks, generous goodwill, and my respect, but . . . Trainers reading slides from Powerpoint to a group of adults make my ears bleed. Trainers showing video clips without introduction or reflective discussion make my eyes bleed. Building a cardboard bridge without explanation or reflection upon the metaphor was disappointing. (Sorry, I ran out of gorey Halloween bleeding hyperboles - - Nose bleeds didn't sound dramatic enough!)

 

For part of Den Leader Specific, the Trainer dropped the various resource books on the table and rattled off their titles with such useful comments as "This is the How To Book. It shows you how to do things."

 

It was obvious that several people in the room had never seen "Program Helps" or the "Cub Scout Leaders Book". These people wanted to know how to have 8 2nd graders in their home for an hour and have a successful meeting where the boys learned and had fun. They didn't learn that. Now, you can say that's not the point of Basic Essentials or DL specific, but what's more basic or more specific to a DL than understanding the structure of Den meetings and the use of BSA resources for planning a quality program.

 

Those DLs could have used a 30 minute lesson just focusing on all the value that "Program Helps" squeezes into its pages! At the very least they could have used a copy of the damn thing to take home. The training classes were so "top line" that we spent 3 minutes on any given topic and when it came time for questions, the trainers couldn't give concrete or accurate answers. Several times the answer was, call your DE or check with the Council. Not once did anyone bother to give those names or phone numbers. We didn't even get the chance to share our own info - sorry, no Scouter connections made here!

 

There was no opportunity or system for reflection and critique of the program or the instructors. That's practically criminal in any adult training - what a waste of a powerful resource - the trainees!!!

 

Here's a basic essential for ya - the name of the person who answers the phone when you call the service center. If you want to help DLs, let them know the service center is filled with people who are interested in service. BTW, her name is Sandy and she's tremendously helpful!

 

I understand the need for an overall introduction to the org., its history, its structure, its aims, etc. But, no one walked out of there with instantly useful, usable info that wasn't supplied by peers instead of trainers. Today's training will not make us better DLs. I could go on for pages about those four hours! I could give specific after specific! GGGGRRRRRRRRRRR!!! It made me crazy! Materials that weren't up to date or contradicted other materials being used - giving us a reading assignment, then talking throughout our reading time - twice crashing the damn balancing nails while the video was playing . . .

 

If the training is valuable then trainers need to make it valuable. If I want to truly make those training sessions useful to myself, I'm gonna have to drive down to the Scout Store in a neighboring council to get the syllabus and go through it myself!

 

I'm not happy, and I'm not satisfied! BW, you are always pounding home the importance of training. Either you're wrong - and I don't really think that - or I have been robbed of a good opportunity. I am no more ready to speak as a "trained" Scouter today than I was yesterday! That shiny new badge is gonna sit on my sleeve like a rattlesnake!!!

 

Sorry, for that tirade.

 

Luckily, I'm not feeling very talkative right now or I would have taken the time to give more details!

 

Who do I have to become to have a positive impact on training and/or trainers???

 

jd

[cubbobwhite]

Your complaints about the current CS Basic training are valid. I feel the same way and I'm the Training Chairman of my Council.

 

I've introduced an all-day Saturday workshop to my council and am calling it On Beyond Basic. The first one is in a couple of weeks. We are doing hands-on - songs, skits, neckerchief slides, plus the serious subject of the outdoor program. I plan to continue these workshops, changing the subject matter each time, through-out the winter.

[dsteele]

I'm trying to get us back on track as the moderate kind of conservative guy that I am . . .

 

When someone in Scouting -- one of my units -- gives me a hypothetical situation and asks for my advice, they get the "by the book" answer.

 

When someone asks me specific questions about a real situation in one of the units that I work with, they get specific free advice (worth what they pay for it) about that specific situation -- based upon:

 

1) the books

2) the training I've received

3) my experiences

4) what I know about the given situation.

 

So which are you seeking.

 

If you're talking hypothetical, I'll go with Bob's answer.

 

If you're talking reality, I need more information.

 

Unc.

[johndaigler]

Sorry about the training vent. I don't take back what I said, but I am sorry to subject the campfire to it.

 

Unc, interesting thoughts. I hope no one feels that my "hypothetical" situation was inappropriately handled - I just wanted to couch it in a "safe" way. My peers, though unable to argue the truth, would not feel good about reading what I have written (am writing). Remember, I use my name on this Forum. It's one thing to subject myself to public recognition, it's another to do that to others. I was just trying to be careful for others' sake.

 

I don't really understand why the hypothetical situation gets a different approach and answer than the real situation. I explained the situation and the question with true details. What more info would help you help me? I know you probably can help, so I hope that last bit didn't sound disrespectful, just unsure. So, short of names and places, . . .

 

The Pack has not payed much attention to program for years. I can't speak about individual Dens, and beyond my experiences last year as a Tiger Parent, my historical information is annecdotal.

 

Last year, Tigers was so frustrating for me, that it was either move on, or get involved.

 

Like I've said in other threads, I grew up on Scouting. My Dad (and Mom!) thought the handbook was a parenting manual! My Dad was Woodbadge, Silver Beaver, St. George, Jamborees and Philmont. His most prized possession (and his most guilt ridden pleasure) was the leaf he nipped from a Gilwell tree on a trip to England. My Father passed away over 10 years ago and that leaf is a prized family heirloom. And by all of that, I mean to say that, Scouting is very important to me, so walking away was not really an option, and I recognize when Scouting doesn't look like Scouting.

 

My Pack is in shambles (has been for a while)and I'm trying to figure out how to Help lead it back to (and beyond) a Quality Program. As a DL, I do OK with the boys I work with, and have a slight influence with other DLs, if only in the peer pressure sense - and also, I'm pretty good at sharing opportunities, so sometimes they come along for the fun!

 

However, Pack Leadership has other roles, that I could pursue, that would allow me to work toward helping the pack as an whole. I'm trying to figure out how best to fit into the puzzle, but there's a big chunk of me that just wants to start making decisions and giving orders! Obviously, that piece gets told to shut up and listen - with the occasionally successful coup upon my keyboarding fingers!

 

My son's a Wolf and, of course, in my Den. But, it's not enough to work with him and seven of his friends, while 60 other boys move toward ending their Scouting careers as Webelos.

 

Another key "reality" piece is the CC, who is dedicated to improvement, but doesn't carry weight with the DLs, or the "old guard", (who are slowly aging out, but still dominate decisions - through their resistance to change). She's considering moving to CM in February (as the current CM crosses over) or sooner.

 

So, that's pretty much it. If my peers read this it will look like I'm arrogantly planning a palace takeover, but I'm not good as sitting back and watching the train careen toward the wall - especially with my son on board.

 

Just looking for help finding the switches to redirect the train!

 

And, I'm thinking that, the training vent had to do with the fact that I NEEDED that training to better accomplish what I'm determined to do. It was terribly frustrating to realize that the time invested did not bring me any closer to being better prepared to help the Pack!

 

John(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[Eamonn]

John you lost me about half way through that long posting.

In the defense of Training's.

One thing that is missing is that the participants don't seem to take notes like they used to.

I don't agree with the Cubmaster being that important. Our Den Leaders work with these little fellows for about 90 minutes every week the Cubmaster gets 90 minutes a month.

If the Cub Scout training isn't as good as we would like I think the Pack Trainer would be a position of "Power"?

Sad thing about an all day course is that there is just too much stuff to take in and Cub Scouter's have enough on their plate without adding more. If we can get the Pack Trainer on the job, we will see better results.

Round-Table meetings are run for Cub Scout leaders. In our District these are run on next months theme.

In our hypothetical pack, it is too easy to say that this doesn't happen in the real world.

If we want to ensure that we are delivering a good program we need good leaders. This means that they have to be selected. The Cubmaster is not a part of the selection. This is up too the COR and the CC. They select the Cubmaster.

It is a sad fact that so many units cry out for help and accept any warm body. At times knowing little or nothing about the "New Leader". Then when things don't go well it seems to be a big surprise. Before I would put my dog in a kennel,I would check it out and find out as much as I could about the people who run it. I would ask people who had knowledge about the owners what they thought. But it seems many packs are willing to allow the new person that they don't know from Adam to take charge of a Den with only a criminal back ground check and three references that they supply.

Give me a active trained CC any day of the week. A person who will follow the selection of Quality Leaders guide and do each and every step.A CC, who will select a honest and hard working Treasurer along with other Committee Members. These good people will manage the pack and allow the Program to be delivered to the boys, by freeing the leaders from the fund raising and paper work, these good people will provide the resources needed by the program people to do the job of delivering the program.

And yes I am biased I see my role as a District Chairman very much like theirs.

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

The most important job in Cub Scouts? The Den Leader.

 

The toughest role to fill? the Den Leader.

 

The biggest influence on the youth? The Den Leader

 

The hardest working? The Den Leader.

 

The most rewarding? The Den Leader.

 

The least likely to attend training? The people responsible for supporting the Den Leader.

 

B:)B White