Past Scoutmaster manages to become COR to mess with the current Scoutmaster, whom he doesn't like

[Tatung42]

Not my troop, but I just heard this bizarre story from a Scoutmaster (lets call him Dave) asking for advice.  I am not really sure what to tell him.

Here is the back story, the past Scoutmaster of the troop (lets call him Bob) stepped down around 5 years ago when his son aged out.  Dave took over as scoutmaster and ran things a little bit differently (or maybe a lot differently) than Bob.  This disconnect caused some bad blood between Bob and Dave; however, eventually Bob went away, and Dave has been running a successful Troop since then.

One other thing to note is that Dave's troop operates essentially without a Chartered Organization.  The CO doesn’t provide the troop a meeting space, storage space, funding, or support in anyway.  In fact, Dave doesn’t even know who the old COR was.

So fast forward to now. Bob, after many years, has apparently decided to be vindictive.  As far as Dave can tell, Bob talked to some people at the CO, and somehow got himself installed as the new COR for the troop (Bob is not even a member of CO, but I guess technically that doesn’t matter).  Now as the COR, Bob is doing everything he can to make life difficult for Dave.  For example, Bob has been refusing to sign any new adult leader applications for the troop.  Bob also signed himself up as a committee member, attended the Troop Committee meeting, and then kept interrupting the meeting with all the things that Dave is doing wrong.  They had to meet again the next week in secret so that Bob wouldn’t come.  Bob is also sending emails directly to newer parents, slandering Dave and trying to get them in his “camp”.

So what to do?

The “right” answer is to talk to someone as the CO and tell them what is going on.  But no one in the troop even knows anyone at the CO, and no one really wants to invest the time in making connections with them, when they do nothing for the troop.

Dave, the committee chair, and most of the committee seem in favor of just dropping the CO, and then hopefully finding another CO that will just be invisible like their current CO used to be (or even better, actually support them).  Unfortunately, with Bob in the picture now, there is concern about the CO not wanting to “give up” the troop.

Would anyone at council help?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Tatung42
fix typos

[SSScout]

Contact your District Commissioner. He/she can advise . "All Scouting is Local"  . First be aware that Council and District will not get officially involved unless there are YP or other criminalities  involved.  That said....

Time for the CCH to make contact (long overdue?) with the CO. The DCommish may help here.  The COR represents the Unit to the BSA. The Institution Head (somebody signed the charter agreement) must be involved here, and the CCH must make her/him aware of the CO's responsibility and the COR's problems.  My understanding (check  with the DCommish) the CO agreement requires the COR to be a member of the CO.  If he is not ? ? ? 

Officially, the COR and the IHead can fire/approve/"hire"  any Scout volunteer listed on the charter each year.  Tred carefully. It is not a pure democracy.  The CO can nix any Committee desire to transfer the charter to another CO. Or approve it.  It wouldn't hurt to knock on some other doors, unofficially. 

Tell your friend "good luck"  and to remember we are in this for the Scouts, not ourselves.    Might want to remind the CO's IH about that.  

See you on the trail 

[CynicalScouter]

38 minutes ago, Tatung42 said:

For example, Bob has been refusing to sign any new adult leader applications for the troop.  Bob also signed himself up as a committee member, attended the Troop Committee meeting, and then kept interrupting the meeting with all the things that Dave is doing wrong. 

There's two aspects here

1. Refusal to a sign off on adult leader applications...why? If he has reason to believe the adults are not OK, that's one thing. If it is simply to cut Dave off at the knees, it is hurting Bob maybe, but scouts are the collateral damage.
2. Bob is within his rights as COR to make himself a committee member and even a committee chair. The COR is the exception to the no-two-positions-in-same-unit rule.

As others said: a unit or district commissioner (volunteer) or district executive (paid professional) can come in and try to talk to all parties and "mediate" (maybe too strong a word) but at the end of the day

1. EVERY adult leader serves at the will and whim of the COR and that will can be revoked at any time for any reason
2. Absent youth protection or outright criminal activity, the district and council will not do anything more than offer a group therapy session (maybe)

And then we get to this

43 minutes ago, Tatung42 said:

But no one in the troop even knows anyone at the CO, and no one really wants to invest the time in making connections with them, when they do nothing for the troop.

So, then why are you sticking with the CO? I will tell you that if you talk to a district or council person, professional or volunteer, that will be the first or second question.

You have three painful choices.

1. Get into the good graces of whoever is running that CO and try to convince them Dave's right and Bob's wrong. Based on the above, I suspect that's not going to happen.
2. Throw Dave out of position as SM or wait long enough for Bob to do it. That fixes the short term problem (the Dave-and-Bob strife) but not the long term one (Bob's still there).
3. Get a new CO.

 

[CynicalScouter]

51 minutes ago, Tatung42 said:

Unfortunately, with Bob in the picture now, there is concern about the CO not wanting to “give up” the troop.

Then the committee and those who are anti-Bob need to make it clear: Bob goes or we go.

[fred8033]

Situation is common.  Grudge being pursued by getting "perceived" power and causing issues. 

• Power grabs using the COR role is fairly common.  Another is CC or a district role such as unit commissioner, etc.  
• "Perceived" as others need to give them power.   Others should push back when someone misbehaves / behaves as a bully.   
• Try friendly conversation.  Offer friendship.  Offer honest open conversation.  
• For this situation.
  • COR sitting in a committee meeting is just a committee member.   They don't get to usurp conversation or CC authority.
  • COR should NOT be emailing all parents without SM/CC agreement.  That's absolutely not their role.   
  • Key point - COR does not get to inject themselves into day-to-day unit operation.  
• Clarify roles per BSA expectations
  • COR's job is to approve unit leaders and serve as liaison between unit and charter org.  (share goals, expectations, results, etc).   Once the COR approves the CC/SM, then the CO needs to trust the CC/SM. 
  • CC job is to run the committee
  • SM is to interact with scouts.
  • SM/CC need to reach agreement on who coordinates with parents.  
• Push back
  • CC/SM needs to stand up to preserve role.
  • It is okay for CC to remove the COR as a committee member.  "We'd prefer you not attend." 
  • Be prepared to quit.  If COR is subverting the CM/SM, honestly be ready to step away.  
• The person who can resolve this is the charter org executive.  Period. 
  • Council and DE don't want to step into internal unit politics.  Sometimes they are willing to mediate.  Usually, not.  
  • They can replace the COR or release the troop.  The troop can't select another COR without the CO releasing the unit and it's assets.  ... UNLESS ... you give up your troop number, assets, meeting space, etc and re-signup everyone under a new troop  number. 
• Finding a new CO
  • Usually, leaving the CO is when the CO doesn't want you or doesn't care.  That's not the situation.  
  • WARNING - been discussed before ... Don't even think of moving the assets (bank accounts, equipment, paid reservations, etc) without the CO's approval.  It's theft and can easily cause issues.  Especially if you have a COR raising issues.  ... Similar ... do NOT spend down unit assets before leaving as that's effectively theft too as you are not working in the CO's best interest.  
  • All unit members can step away enmasse effectively embarrassing and killing the old troop.  BUT, you lose the troop number, the meeting space and all assets.  
  • Only way to do this is to get the charter org EXECUTIVE agreement.  

[fred8033]

9 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

1. Bob is within his rights as COR to make himself a committee member and even a committee chair. The COR is the exception to the no-two-positions-in-same-unit rule.

Ummm ... mostly.  We might be thinking the same thing, but negotiating words. 

• Yes.  COR can make himself CC. 
• Partial when the COR does not make himself the CC
  • Then, someone else is the CC.
  • CC has the right to choose his committee and run the behind-the-scenes activities.
  • Committee members server at the pleasure of the CC. 
  • If the CC doesn't want the COR as a committee member, that's the CC's decision and role. 
• COR can disagree by replacing the CC.

People have to give power to be bullied around.  Perhaps I'm old enough ... or with less to lose ... or recognizing there are other places to spend my time ... it's okay to push back.  In fact, it's good to push back. 

COR really has less power than they think.  

The real issue is subverting another person's efforts and not playing nice. 

Try a friendly conversation. 

[Cburkhardt]

From your explanation, it seems clear that Bob is not adding value in delivering resources and constructive oversight from the CO.  My prescription would be to have a senior Council volunteer officer meet with the executive officer of the CO (one is always identified on the Charter) and make a change.  The unavoidable solutions are that either the CO steps-up and replaces Bob with one of the CO’s real members, or the Troop volunteers and CO sever the relationship and the Troop moves to a different CO.  Trying to baby-around with the situation by working with Bob to accommodate his desires is going to fail.  Cut directly to a solution by involving authority.

As for Dave's attitude toward COs, I think COs are a great resource when properly engaged and the unit leader understands and cooperates.  I base this on being a unit leader of both a stand-alone all-girl Troop and a Ship. 

The Troop CO is a modest Episcopal Church where the COR and Committee Chair are on the Vestry (the Episcopal Church term for the volunteer “church council”).  They deliver scads of resources and solid advice.  They get the members of the Parish involved in supporting us.  Regarding the few incidents when I had a parent or outsider causing unusual trouble, they handled it so I could continue to be productive.  The troublesome “Bobs” of Scouting are easily dealt with when the Troop CO relationship is productive.  The executive officer and COR handle it and the “Bobs” either become cooperative or their relationship with the unit is terminated.

The Ship CO is our metropolitan-wide Coast Guard Auxiliary Division.  They get our young people access to everything and help provide the program instruction.  They stand behind our Skippers Staff and me in a visible way.  The Division Commander is the Committee Chair and one of his subcomponent Flotilla Commanders is the COR.  The Coast Guard is well represented on our committee.  They regard the Ship as truly a part of their mission.  This CO would immediately sense a “Bob” personality and prevent trouble from the start.

Having an effective CO and obtaining meaningful benefits from the relationship is not difficult.  The volunteers running the unit just need to make sure the COR is someone respected within the CO and then actually involve the person and the executive officer in the unit.  I invited the Church Rector (who serves as the CO executive officer) to visit our Troop at summer camp.  The Coast Guard Division Commander is a radio expert, so I had him teach the Sea Scouts a seminar on marine radio use.  Give them a chance to feel included and valued and you will have CO support.  Another benefit is that a good CO is a real help in providing a layer of YPT oversight.  Our COR really understands YPT and is very helpful in our avoiding inadvertent mistakes.  Some might fear a CO will bring in unknowledgeable meddlers into the troop environment.  While that is possible, it is not likely if the right people are involved.  The typical CO is loaded with Scouting alumni who can be effective volunteers.

For all these reasons, I hope the option of having a CO relationship will continue into the future.  Our two units would lose a lot if we were just tenants “using a room”.  The Sea Scout Ship would not be able to continue without the involvement of its CO.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, Tatung42 said:

Dave, the committee chair, and most of the committee seem in favor of just dropping the CO, and then hopefully finding another CO that will just be invisible like their current CO used to be (or even better, actually support them). 

The scoutmaster is totally out of line.  I don't know if this is intentional defiance or just simple ignorance.  Because he has been a scoutmaster for 5 years now, neither reason is acceptable.  He should know better by now.  

 

1 hour ago, Tatung42 said:

They had to meet again the next week in secret so that Bob wouldn’t come. 

This is unacceptable behavior.  This alone would justify changing the committee assignments.  A scout unit should have no secret meetings or backroom politicking.  The committee process should be open, honest, above-board, and transparent.

 

1 hour ago, Tatung42 said:

I am not really sure what to tell him.

Tell him to follow the rules.  That is usually the best advice.

Edited September 8, 2021 by David CO

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

In fact, Dave doesn’t even know who the old COR was.

There is a lot about this story that I find very difficult to believe.  This one leads the list.  The COR's name and signature are on a lot of unit documents.  It's on the roster.  It is inconceivable to me that a scoutmaster doesn't know the COR's name.  

 

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

I just heard this bizarre story

Yes, it is a bizarre story.  I wouldn't believe it.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

... One other thing to note is that Dave's troop operates essentially without a Chartered Organization.  The CO doesn’t provide the troop a meeting space, storage space, funding, or support in anyway.  In fact, Dave doesn’t even know who the old COR was. ...

Shame on Dave. The unit should report to the CO at least yearly. For churches, Scout Sunday is ideal for that sort of thing. If you don't have a meaningful conversation with your COR and IH (institutional head) at least once a year, you are doing your troop a profound disservice.

Now, it's time for Dave to start having meaningful conversations with the new COR ... that would be Bob. Bob's belligerent, we gather. But, is he wrong? Has he met these leaders whose applications he holds in his hand? Has he called their references? Is he representing the CO well?

If Dave is concerned that Bob is not representing the wishes of the CO to the troop, the only recourse is to contact the IH and make up for lost time.

 

[fred8033]

29 minutes ago, David CO said:

Yes, it is a bizarre story.  I wouldn't believe it.

Though we are just hearing one side.  SM/COR/CC probably all have responsibility / blame in it.  But I don't find it that hard to believe.  I was COR for years.  There was a period where we had a CM that I don't think he really knew my role until one year when he handled the recharter paperwork.  It's easy to keep a unit running and not realize "official" roles.  I know when I did the rechartering, I tried to keep the other leaders out of it as it was just a distraction for them.

Edited September 8, 2021 by fred8033

[MattR]

I'm voting with there needs to be a better relationship with the CO. That's where all the grief is coming from. It doesn't even matter whether this story is believable, the COR is a pain and the only way to fix that is creating a better relationship with the CO. Also, expecting a better relationship with a new CO, where there's no effort to create a good relationship, is just kicking the can down the road. It may be a lot easier to repair the current relationship than find a new CO. As others have said, go talk to the CO.