Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[CynicalScouter]

18 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

A scout is thrifty

Then name the number the current Scouts BSA (Mosby) should be making as salary. $1?

[Gilwell_1919]

8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So you believe that the BSA's auditing and accounting firm signed off on fraudulent IRS 990 forms, thereby committing at least 6 felonies?

Even if I think BSA's lying, I don't think the accounting firms are, especially after Sarbanes-Oxley.

I'm not saying BSA is committing fraud... or that accounting firms are pencil whipping the creative numbers they are given. They hid and concealed child abuse to protect their treasure...but they didn't hide and conceal aspects of their accounting methods to protect their treasure? 🤨 

[CynicalScouter]

7 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

They hid and concealed child abuse to protect their treasure...but they didn't hide and conceal aspects of their accounting methods to protect their treasure?

EVEN IF they did in the past, there's NO evidence they are doing so NOW in 2021 (and the financial data for 2019 and 2020, which is what I referenced) and in fact given that every financial document is being vetted by a) their accountants who are now post-Sarbanes-Oxley on notice the accountants can get handcuffed if they fudge numbers b) the attorneys for the claimants, I find it extremely unlikely that BSA's accounting TODAY is anything other than squeaky clean.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[vol_scouter]

56 minutes ago, David CO said:

I'm sure that everyone who is suffering through this bankruptcy will be happy to hear that the big shots are being properly entertained.  

 

So you would prefer that the CSE or others at the national service center should not try to entertain individuals who can each write checks for large amounts of money?  Really?

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So you would prefer that the CSE or others at the national service center should not try to entertain individuals who can each write checks for large amounts of money?

They should all also apparently work for $1 a piece (if that much) as well.

[vol_scouter]

49 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

No, I am not "hating for the sake of hating". But I have seen budget after budget, year after year, that tucks things into "the program" so the professionals can cobble together pretty flyers for deep-pocketed donors.  What program is that exactly? Run down camps in a lot of councils? Thrown together activities that focus more on profit than quality? The numbers you're propounding are only as good as the people reporting them. And the last time I checked... the people who are reporting them spent a century covering up child abuse so as not to scare away members or deep-pocketed donors.  You can't say BSA looked the other way when kids were being raped and then in another post say... "look, here are some numbers... it's not at all inappropriate". And if you think they aren't "getting creative" with their numbers... I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you. 

Every year during our Friends of Scouting campaign, we have several groups. The group of the heavy hitters is approximately equal to the others combined.  So make the brochures, slides, posters, or whatever it requires to make contact and convince them that Scouting is something that they wish to make a large donation. 

[David CO]

59 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

 spent a century covering up child abuse so as not to scare away members or deep-pocketed donors.  

Exactly.

[vol_scouter]

So you too with a bachelor’s degree can work 60+ hours a week including nights and weekends, work to make volunteers successful while receiving no credit, and face the disgruntled parents and volunteers for about $40,000 a year.

[PeterHopkins]

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm still slightly confused on how you allocate salaries by program or not in an organization such as scouting.  To be more precise, salary of directory of training?  IMHO, that's program.  Training oversight / coordination is a major focus of the council and a big contributor to program quality.  Front desk receptionist.  Most front desks deal with mostly scout leaders and new parents wanting to find the scout shop or individual signing up for things.  So, I'd allocate front desk to program.  Essentially, I'd allocate most roles (DE, advancement, training, etc) to program as that's how scouting works.  "Management" is nebulous.  Is that finances, marketing, etc? 

It must be an art to decide which is which or done per some generally accepted accounting principles. 

As you say, accounting is an art, not a science. Taxation, as a discipline, is a science that is often invaded by the art of accounting.

Management's judgement plays a role in producing accounting figures. For instance, if a bakery buys a new delivery trck, management must estimate how many years the truck will be used, what its salvage value will be and the rate at which the truck's value or usefulness will decline. All these factors will drive how much depreciation expense the bakery recognizes in its financial statements for the truck. The only thing that accounting rules require in computing depreciation expense is that a rational and systematic method be used. So, if the truck is purchased at the start of a year for $40,000, mangement estimates it will be in service for 20 years and end with no slavage value, one might conclude that recognizing $2,000 per year of depreciation is fair. However, sinced the truck will lose more value in earlier years than later years, one might find it proper to accelerate the depreciation expense by doubling the depreciation on the carrying value in the earlier years...

2021 $4,000 (40,000 x 2 / 20)

2022 $3,600 (36,000 remaining x 2 / 20)

2023 $3,240 (32,400 x 2 / 20)

2024 $2,916 (29,160 x 2 / 20)

2025 $2,624 (26,244 x 2 / 20)

2026 $2,362 (23,620 x 2 / 20)

2027 $2,126 (21,258 x 2 / 20)

2028 $1,913 (19,132 x 2 / 20)

2029 $1,722 (17,219 x 2 / 20)

2030 $1,550 (15,497 x 2 / 20)

2031 $1,395 (13,947 x 2 / 20 or 13,947 / 10 years remaining)

2032 through 2040 approximately $1,395 per year (starting with 12,552 / 9)

After you've gone through alll that trouble, you're still wrong. The truck won't actually last exactly 20 years. It will probably have some salvage value when the bakery disposes of it even if it is just scrap metal. The value of the truck is not going to decline at exactly double the rate of what a straight-line calculation would give you. Why not 150% of straight line or triple? On the bakery's 2028 balance sheet, it will show the truck with a carrying value of $17,219. Is that exactly what the truck is worth? Of course not.

Once you've scheduled out the depreciation on the truck, you need to evaluate it for impairment. The question you need to ask yourself annually is whether the truck will contribute to creation of enough business in the future to justify the carrying value. So, as of the end of 2028, will the truck create enough revenue to justify carrying it a $17,219? Perhaps that year, tyhe bakery invested in a new driverless truck and hangs on to the old one as a backup. Maybe you estimate the old truck will make approximately $5,000 of deliveries in the future. If that's your conclusion, you need to record a $12,219 impairment loss and then recalibrate your annual depreciation expenses for the truck going forward.

In accounting, we go through all this trouble to estimat how much expense to allocate to each year. Yes, it truly is an art.

In taxation, Congress either tells you how much of a depreciation deduction you can get for the truck each year or gives you two or more choices of methods you can select to calculate it. That's a science.

While the concept of allocation is easy to see with a truck, it becomes much more complicated with a human like a DE. The DE creates salary, benefits and payroll taxes. Often, a DE will have mixed responsibilities. The DE needs to support existing units, encourage creation of new units and recruit new youth members. A DE may also be tasked with making Friends of Scouting presentations or being the staff adviser for a fundraising event. Then, the DE likely does thing in connection with his or her employment like attending a presentation on the council's new health insurance plan or filling out his expense report that aren't directly related to either program or fundraising. Unless these tasks are managerial in nature, the costs associated with performing them are probably best split between program and fundraising, based on the relative amount of time spent on each. However, preparing an employee evaluation on a paraprofessional is a mangerial function.

Just like all humans, the DE will fail to precisely capture the amount of time s/he spends on every single task. So, the allocation is doomed to be wrong. What we're going for is reasonable.

I've neevr advised the BSA or a local council on this. However, I tend to favor calling support of volunteer or youth training a program expense. If a council professional spends time making sure a Wood Badge course happens, that looks like a program expense to me. The entire salary of the national director of training is likely a program expense. Similarly, that would likely be the case with people such as the national director of Cub Scouting or the national director of the Order of the Arrow. However, we can never forget that it is not the person's title that drives into which bucket the salary falls. Rather, it is the function being performed. Often, an employee will have a title and spend less than 100% of his or her time on tasks indicated by that title. For instance, does the national director of the Order of the Arrow spend any time on the OA Endowment? Well, if he does, then he's performing some fundraising functions.

Aside from dealing with Scouts and Scouters, the person at the front desk also deal with the guy who delivers water for the cooler. She directs the copy machine repair guy to where he can find the machine. She may not have any direct involvement in program delivery. Her salary is likely in the general bucket.

Finance functions are typically in the general category. Much of the Scout executrive's salary is likely in that category as well. However, s/he probably almost certainly spends time on fundraising, and that may be significant. If the Scout executive attends a Blue & Gold luncheon on Day 1 of a Wood badge course, that's program.

For most organizations, there is a giant spreadhseet that allocates all the expenses by function. Whoever puts it together can do no better than produce results constrained by the quality of the data taken into accont. In the end, someone with authority to do so judges it to be reaonable, and we move on to next year.

[David CO]

25 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So you too with a bachelor’s degree can work 60+ hours a week including nights and weekends, work to make volunteers successful while receiving no credit, and face the disgruntled parents and volunteers for about $40,000 a year.

That is incredibly offensive.  I made $40,000 a year as a Catholic school teacher.  I have degrees.  I worked 60 and 70 hours per week, including nights and weekends.  I had to deal with disgruntled parents and volunteers.  And you know what, I was glad to have the job.

What I couldn't stand is listening to the smugness, elitism, condescension, and superior attitudes from those who earned more than me and thought they were better than me because of it.  In my opinion, that is the hardest part of teaching and scouting.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by David CO

[Eagle94-A1]

My comments in Red.

24 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So you too with a bachelor’s degree can work 60+ hours a week including nights and weekends,

Only 60 hours?!?!?!?! When I was a DE, 60 hours was a light week. Longest weeks were approx. 114, with me being on call another 30 hours. And in reality DEs are on call 24/7. Best wedding gift I got was a card from my volunteers saying they would not call me between the hours of 10PM and 6AM unless it was an absolute emergency.

30 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

 work to make volunteers successful while receiving no credit

Actually I worked to make the Scouts and Programs successful. Helping the adults was gravy. As for receiving credit, I really did not care about that, although it was nice to be recognized as the " Boy Scout Guy."

 

31 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

and face the disgruntled parents and volunteers

(sarcasm on) Yes I loved being yelled and cursed out at by parents and volunteers especially over matters I not only had no control over, but also agreed with the volunteers.(sarcasm off).

33 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

 for about $40,000 a year.

About $40K/year!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I wish. My salary was significantly lower, and  the current salary is not much higher.  My council tried to hire me back a few months ago, and the starting salary was no way near near $40K.

 

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

What I couldn't stand is listening to the smugness, elitism, condescension, and superior attitudes from those who earned more than me and thought they were better than me because of it.  In my opinion, that is the hardest part of teaching and scouting.

 Agree. I know some of the abuse my aunt, uncle, and mother went through working in education. In fact when I was doing my education practicums and student teaching, EVERY teacher I talked to tried to tell me go into another profession; education was not worth it.  Only reason they were still teaching was because they were so close to retiring with their pension. They told me some of their horror stories dealing with students, parents, and administrators. 

[vol_scouter]

@David CO  DE’s are often hired away from the local councils to work less and get paid more.  DE’s are often former Scouts who served on camp staff who are wanting to continue those experiences and it is their first job so have no experience to get better paying jobs.

Teaching does not get paid what I believe that they deserve. Sorry that happened to you.  I have never equated wealth with respect and doubt that I ever shall.

My different careers were all wonderful and rewarding.  Comparatively to others with similar good job.

In today’s market, the amount paid DE’s and the amount of weekly hours and little recognition is too low.  It is the marketplace. 

[CynicalScouter]

18 minutes ago, David CO said:

And you know what, I was glad to have the job.

Good for you. In the given marketplace, asking DEs to do 60+ hours a week for $40k will happen so rarely that the jobs remain open for months. My council had a DE spot, pre-pandemic, open for 11 months. Are there people willing to work that much for that little? Yes. Are there enough to meet Local Council staffing needs? Nope.

Of course, I suppose you'd argue that all those professionals should just get paid $1 and be grateful and happy to work in/for scouting?

[David CO]

38 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

education was not worth it.  

It was worth it.

(But scouting wasn't.  In hindsight, I regret having started a scout troop)

Edited September 2, 2021 by David CO
clarify a thought

[David CO]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When I was a DE, 60 hours was a light week. Longest weeks were approx. 114, with me being on call another 30 hours. And in reality DEs are on call 24/7. Best wedding gift I got was a card from my volunteers saying they would not call me between the hours of 10PM and 6AM unless it was an absolute emergency.

If that is the case, then DE's should have liked me better.  I never once phoned them.  I never once asked them to come to a unit activity.  I never once asked them to do anything for us.  I should have been their idea of an ideal scout leader.