Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

All want to provide a quality Scouting program to as many youth as possible - to meet the mission and fulfill the vision.

I wish that was my experience and perception...sadly, it is not.  I could change my perception, but then it wouldn't be based on my experience.

[vol_scouter]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I wish that was my experience and perception...sadly, it is not.  I could change my perception, but then it wouldn't be based on my experience.

That is sad.  Seems like many on this forum have problems at their local councils.  People who are part of properly functioning councils are likely not here and posting.  Knowing the upper management of the BSA, the NEC, and NEB as well as many committee members, the national council of the BSA is dedicated to the mission and vision statements that frequently are cited to help direct decisions.  These men and women are dedicated Scouters just as they are on the local level.

[CynicalScouter]

 

49 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

That is simply not true.  Generating more money does not increase the professional salaries.

I had a conversation with a person once who was absolutely convinced that our DE made 2-3 times what she actually does AND that she got paid on commission/the more fundraising she brings in the more she got.

When I showed the salary range for the DE position, he was shocked.

One more point: if a person was just looking to make money, the not-for-profit world is the LAST place they'd be looking.

[Gilwell_1919]

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

One more point: if a person was just looking to make money, the not-for-profit world is the LAST place they'd be looking.

Quote

The Chief Scout Executive, the CEO of the Boy Scouts of America National Council, receives a salary of $1,577,600. This places the Boy Scouts of America National Council CEO as the highest paid CEO in the Human Services Category. (Charity Navigator lists the BSA in the Human Services Category.)Aug 5, 2009

Update: BSA Listed in Top Five Highest CEO Salaries Study

Seems like there is plenty of money being made in the not-for-profit world.  

[johnsch322]

I would like to point out something to the dedicated scouters/leaders on the forum.  The biggest threat to the BSA/Scouting as you know it is not the Tim Kosnoff or the majority of the claimants lawyers it is the insurance company's.  The longer that they object to everything (validity of claims etc.) and refuse to settle the more money BSA is bleeding from legal fees.  If it comes down to no money available a cramdown will become necessary for the survival of National. If the cramdown cones into effect the LC's will be left hanging as there will be a rush in all of the SOL states to the courthouse.  When other states open up and have SOL's more claims will be filed (and it is only a matter of time before that happens).  The amounts that will be awarded will cause most of those LC's to have to go bankrupt themselves.

Edited September 2, 2021 by johnsch322

[SiouxRanger]

9 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Seems like there is plenty of money being made in the not-for-profit world.

Back in the Jere Ratcliff era, I read or heard from a scouter that the combined salary of the CEO of The Salvation Army and top aide (his wife) was $86,000. (per year).

My SE is making over $100,000 in deferred compensation (per year).

[vol_scouter]

16 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Seems like there is plenty of money being made in the not-for-profit world.  

The CSE reported income includes his budget for entertainment and other funds that is not personal income.  Their actual salaries are less then half of that figure.

[CynicalScouter]

16 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Seems like there is plenty of money being made in the not-for-profit world.  

The industry standard for not for profits is that the CEO makes .1-10% of all expenses generated by the not for profit. The larger the organization, the smaller the percentage.

For 2019, BSA had expenses of $460 million.

https://ar2019.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/2019-Unaudited-Treasurers-Report-Final-5-13-201_2.pdf

The latest reports and data indicate that for a not for profit or charity with similar expenses to BSA, CEO salaries were 0.2% of expenses.

https://analytics.excellenceingiving.com/2019-2020-nonprofit-ceo-compensation-study/

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=studies.ceo

$460 million * 0.2% = $920,000

But if you want to fight about the CEO salary, let's have that fight. Name the proper amount/name the number.

10 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The CSE reported income includes his budget for entertainment and other funds that is not personal income.  Their actual salaries are less then half of that figure.

Yep. But it is so much easier to hate, hate, hate the professionals as if they should all be paid $1

[David CO]

8 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The CSE reported income includes his budget for entertainment and other funds that is not personal income.  Their actual salaries are less then half of that figure.

I'm sure that everyone who is suffering through this bankruptcy will be happy to hear that the big shots are being properly entertained.  

 

[CynicalScouter]

57 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

But, to not give a modicum of consideration to how this is affecting the current youth... seems a bit hypocritical from my perspective.

Again, that is NOT the job of the attorney(s) for the victim(s). That is the job of the attorneys for BSA.

But let me wrap this up with a comment the judge made in an earlier hearing. She had said that while the survivors have an interest in the outcome of this bankruptcy, so too do the scouts of this generation. She is NOT utterly unaware of what the ramifications are here.

And again, let me go back to another point: Kosnoff is ONE LAWYER. Every other attorney on record so far has said they are in favor of a Chapter 7 deal that does NOT kill of BSA.

[Gilwell_1919]

4 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The CSE reported income includes his budget for entertainment and other funds that is not personal income.  Their actual salaries are less then half of that figure.

When I have scouts whose families can't affords shoes, let alone "the program", and those of us that have the means spend tens of thousands of dollars from our own pockets to make "the program work" at the unit level... sorry compadre... I am not going to engage in a semantical debate over how hundreds of thousands of dollars "for entertainment and other funds" isn't technically a person's salary. A scout is thrifty.... and using kids to sling popcorn in the streets so you can have an "entertainment fund" is just as bad.  

[CynicalScouter]

Great @David CO.

Rather than just downvote actual data about what not for profit CEOs make, I'll make you a deal.

Name the number the BSA CEO should make. What's the dollar figure?

[Gilwell_1919]

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yep. But it is so much easier to hate, hate, hate the professionals as if they should all be paid $1

No, I am not "hating for the sake of hating". But I have seen budget after budget, year after year, that tucks things into "the program" so the professionals can cobble together pretty flyers for deep-pocketed donors.  What program is that exactly? Run down camps in a lot of councils? Thrown together activities that focus more on profit than quality? The numbers you're propounding are only as good as the people reporting them. And the last time I checked... the people who are reporting them spent a century covering up child abuse so as not to scare away members or deep-pocketed donors.  You can't say BSA looked the other way when kids were being raped and then in another post say... "look, here are some numbers... it's not at all inappropriate". And if you think they aren't "getting creative" with their numbers... I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Gilwell_1919

[CynicalScouter]

9 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

The numbers you're propounding are only as good as the people reporting them.

So you believe that the BSA's auditing and accounting firm signed off on fraudulent IRS 990 forms, thereby committing at least 6 felonies?

Even if I think BSA's lying, I don't think the accounting firms are, especially after Sarbanes-Oxley.

Nor do I believe that BSA is submitting fraudulent financial data to the bankruptcy court.

AND even if I did believe BSA was doing so, I have every reason to believe a) the accounting firms won't sign that (this isn't the days of Enron anymore) b) the attorneys for the claimants wouldn't be neck deep in those financial records just looking for something they can pounce on.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Gilwell_1919]

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Again, that is NOT the job of the attorney(s) for the victim(s). That is the job of the attorneys for BSA.

But let me wrap this up with a comment the judge made in an earlier hearing. She had said that while the survivors have an interest in the outcome of this bankruptcy, so too do the scouts of this generation. She is NOT utterly unaware of what the ramifications are here.

And again, let me go back to another point: Kosnoff is ONE LAWYER. Every other attorney on record so far has said they are in favor of a Chapter 7 deal that does NOT kill of BSA.

@CynicalScouterIt was pointed out to me in a PM why I should stop hurling judiciously acerbic darts at Tim K. I concede and I'll zip my lips when it comes to him.