Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[T2Eagle]

54 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

Are LC's in your area communicating what is going on with bankruptcy and scouts being abused in your council to new parents and prospective scouts?

I feel like LC's in my area are not. I would like to raise awareness to protect future scouts. I know YPT will get better in the future but now parents need to know their child may not be safe in the present BSA. 

Thinking of renting billboards by the council office and camp highlighting the amount of abuse cases and need to be cautious. 

In what way are scouts not safe in the current BSA?  My LC has 2-3 claims filed that are within the SOL, which means sometime i the last two decades.  These are of course untested claims so it's not even clear they reveal anything.

Improvements will hopefully make things better, but there is very little evidence that scouts today are meaningfully unsafe in scouting.  Not perfect doesn't mean not safe.

[skeptic]

44 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

In what way are scouts not safe in the current BSA?  My LC has 2-3 claims filed that are within the SOL, which means sometime i the last two decades.  These are of course untested claims so it's not even clear they reveal anything.

Improvements will hopefully make things better, but there is very little evidence that scouts today are meaningfully unsafe in scouting.  Not perfect doesn't mean not safe.

Yep; that is the issue with this whole thing.  Blow it out of perspective and suggest it is rampant all over the country.  Just not the case, nor ever has been.  Hype, hype, hype and negativity where it really barely exists.  And for those few that keep suggesting that means I think the abuse that has happened is okay because it is not rampant.  Please keep it to yourself.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Are LC's in your area communicating what is going on with bankruptcy and scouts being abused in your council to new parents and prospective scouts?

I feel like LC's in my area are not. I would like to raise awareness to protect future scouts. I know YPT will get better in the future but now parents need to know their child may not be safe in the present BSA. 

Thinking of renting billboards by the council office and camp highlighting the amount of abuse cases and need to be cautious. 

This is a limitation of nationally administered online YPT. My first training was from a council president who outlined recently filed accusations of abuse -- especially at the camp where we were receiving training.

I am a strong proponent of incident reporting ... not in terms of numbers, but in terms of rates. A small council with one incident over the past ten years may well be more "risky" than a large council with ten incidents in the past year.

On the other hand, that kind of information can backfire. Low incidence in an LC may lead its members to be complacent. That could enable a safe haven for a predator.

[PACAN]

@Skeptic....depends on who gets the bill.    Still hearing that each CO will be presented a bill.  Estimated 3000 UMC COs  still standing so that's 10,000 each.  I asked one of my Methodist church sponsored units friend whose units just went out of business.  He was fairly sure not many UMC CO's would continue if presented with a fee like that.  So hopefully the UMC has deep pockets.   On the other side, it is good to see they feel the BSA still fits in their youth programs.

Other COs will leave as well especially the smaller ones or "friends of" types if they get a bill.

This mess continues!  😒

 

[T2Eagle]

23 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@Skeptic....depends on who gets the bill.    Still hearing that each CO will be presented a bill.  Estimated 3000 UMC COs  still standing so that's 10,000 each.  I asked one of my Methodist church sponsored units friend whose units just went out of business.  He was fairly sure not many UMC CO's would continue if presented with a fee like that.  So hopefully the UMC has deep pockets.   On the other side, it is good to see they feel the BSA still fits in their youth programs.

Other COs will leave as well especially the smaller ones or "friends of" types if they get a bill.

This mess continues!  😒

 

So the "bill" we're talking about is not related, at least directly, to whether a CO continues as a CO.  COs aren't going to be given a statement and told pay this or you won't be allowed to be a CO any more.

You pay into the fund as a means of protecting yourself against things that already happened.  Deciding not to continue as a CO doesn't keep you from being sued for events that already happened in the past.  Whether to pay and whether to continue as a CO are unrelated decisions.

[PACAN]

Thanks.  I wonder if all CO that have a case currently under litigation have been contacted explaining their liability.  If your CO has no cases, they will still drop scouts as lots of them have already done.  The 40% loss of membership suggests that parents are tired.

I cant find the post or even which topic it was in and maybe I read it wrong but it seemed to say there could be a fee  levied on COs.  Someone tongue in cheek said the national charter fee will go from $75 to $7500 in 2023.

 

 

[johnsch322]

12 hours ago, skeptic said:

Blow it out of perspective and suggest it is rampant all over the country.  Just not the case, nor ever has been.  Hype, hype, hype and negativity where it really barely exists. 

And now the BSA and cohorts are victims?

[johnsch322]

Some of the posts that I have read here are starting to sound a lot like:

Holocaust Denial
Holocaust deniers know they won’t be believed if they just outright deny that the holocaust happened at all, so instead, they decided they would take the stance that the holocaust happened but not to the extreme degree that people claim it to be. Most scholars believe Holocaust denial started because of issues with Israel, anti-Semitism, and skepticism of the widely accepted history. Holocaust denial has been going on since the Holocaust began. It would be incredibly difficult for me to convince you that the Holocaust never happened, but it would be much easier for me to undermine the validity of what you think you know about the Holocaust.
The name “Holocaust Deniers” can actually work in favor of the people trying to discredit the Holocaust. They claim instead that they are not Holocaust deniers, just trying to have an honest debate about what happened during the Holocaust. Then they can make the claim that they aren’t extremists because they don’t deny the whole holocaust. The use vagueness as a tool against facts, the minute they get into clear specifics their argument starts to fall apart. Their argument relies heavily on the argument that Auschwitz is the perfect example of what Nazi concentration camps were like. The general public tends to forget that there were upwards of 40,000 Nazi concentration camps active during the Holocaust.
 

[T2Eagle]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

Thanks.  I wonder if all CO that have a case currently under litigation have been contacted explaining their liability.  

 

That's a good question.  I asked if my CO had been named in any of the claims and was told no.  I should have asked if we would have been told if we had been named.

I didn't do a deep dive into the claims to see how well a CO could be identified, maybe someone who has examined them more closely could answer whether a CO could find out for themselves if they went looking.

[Eagle94-A1]

6 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

That's a good question.  I asked if my CO had been named in any of the claims and was told no.  I should have asked if we would have been told if we had been named.

I didn't do a deep dive into the claims to see how well a CO could be identified, maybe someone who has examined them more closely could answer whether a CO could find out for themselves if they went looking.

I do not know if the LC would tell us or not. Somewhere on the net there is a list of COs listed, if known. I also do not know how complete it is. The link to the list was posted on one of the bankruptcy pages a while back. I did access it to see if any of the units/COs I was involved with were listed, including the one unit I do know had 2 victims. None were listed. I think because the unit with 2 victims was prosecuted and dealt with, the victims are not part of this lawsuit. 

[ThenNow]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The link to the list was posted on one of the bankruptcy pages a while back.

Exhibit 4, page 27. Don't know if there's been an update. 

https://www.pszjlaw.com/assets/htmldocuments/BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims.pdf

 

[T2Eagle]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Exhibit 4, page 27. Don't know if there's been an update. 

https://www.pszjlaw.com/assets/htmldocuments/BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims.pdf

 

Thanks, I took a look at that.  It has three data sets: year, council, CO, but it doesn't correlate them.  So it works if your CO is uniquely named.  Mine is a Catholic CO, and there's no way of knowing which "St. John Parish" has been named. 

[ThenNow]

11 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

So it works if your CO is uniquely named.  Mine is a Catholic CO, and there's no way of knowing which "St. John Parish" has been named. 

Same. St. Mary (or Mary's) and we met in the school, so it could also be the identified CO. I inquired about an assessment of correlation and was told none was done. Was hoping for city at least. I made the request when the document was first made available. Perhaps they did some more digging. Who knows. In my case, I clearly identified the CO with city, address, pastor, current name after mergers and every related person I could think of at the moment.

[Eagle94-A1]

@ThenNow, Thank you for the link.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Exhibit 4, page 27. Don't know if there's been an update. 

https://www.pszjlaw.com/assets/htmldocuments/BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims.pdf

Thank you for the link. 

I was amazed at the typos and the lack of city, state on COs preventing checking if basic data is right.  Example ... I was looking at churches named after saints in the doc.  There are many that I know can't exist because of the naming.  Maybe because my home church was named uniquely that I notice this.  If it listed city and state, at least we could look for a name that is similar.

Using naming (with minor corrections), a fair number just can't exist.