Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[fred8033]

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

My situation may be an anomaly, but my SM/abuser is 11 years my senior. The DE turned SE, 13 years. One committed the abuse, the other at least tacitly complicit, if not actively an accessory. One is enjoying his retirement. The other the senior biz development officer for a very successful escrow and title company in one of the US's largest cities. They're very much alive and well.

Understood.  A personal context is meaningful.

The question was about whether someone could be personally liable if the insurance was not properly in place.  

The DE at the time was probably in his young 20s.  Probably first job.  Minimal pay.  Not an excuse.  Just that he was not in a controlling situation.  I'd hope he would have prevented the abuse.  But as an inexperienced, minimal pay, passing on info he was given, I can't see a court order reaching into the company and having him pay for your victimization.  Those held personally liable and asked to pay are more in the Purdue situation (owners, top level executives).  I'd expect the DE's boss is in his retirement home and the scout exec from that time is at best really old.  

No excuses.  The question was about whether anyone will be personally held liable.  I can't anyone from 40 years ago would be held liable because they were too young or they are in their late years at best.

Edited February 3, 2022 by fred8033

[ThenNow]

59 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The DE at the time was probably in his young 20s.  Probably first job.  Minimal pay.  Not an excuse.  Just that he was not in a controlling situation.  I'd hope he would have prevented the abuse.  But as an inexperienced, minimal pay, passing on info he was given, I can't see a court order reaching into the company and having him pay for your victimization.  Those held personally liable and asked to pay are more in the Purdue situation (owners, top level executives).  I'd expect the DE's boss is in his retirement home and the scout exec from that time is at best really old. 

I may not be tying the threads together effectively:

1) The DE promoted to SE (in 1973) knew my SM was giving us booze and porn.

2) He drank with us and sang filthy songs around the camp fire.

3) I don't know what all he knew or did, frankly. 

4) I was first sexualized with alcohol and porn in May of 1972.

5) I was physically abused for the first time in July of 1972.

6) In 1973, he was the managing BSA executive on an abuse case across town from me, which is now in the IV Files. He was around for several others in our LC, though his name doesn't appear on the other IV Files.

7) From the case he managed, and possibly the others, he knew booze and porn were often precursors and grooming techniques leading to physical sexual abuse. 

* When I was 17, the same SE offered me cocaine, hash and weed for sex. He was still the active SE and I was a minor Eagle Scout. 

Does that help?

* Asterisk due to the 8 and parenthesis causing a smirking emoji to appear. Help??

😎 

Edited February 3, 2022 by ThenNow
What's up with the Ray-Bans guy when I type 8)??

[Eagle1993]

There is a chance this may be interesting.  Earlier this week, a joint statement was read in court that significant progress has been made by all mediation partners and to expect an update late this week.  While TCC cannot be specific about anything (unless it hits the docket before their meeting) you may get some clues as to status of the discussions.  This is their first townhall in a month.  I believe the last Coalition update was the day the vote results came out.  Again, don't expect details, but you may get their opinion on where this is headed.

 

The TCC will be returning to a schedule of Town Halls on the first Thursday of each month. The next regular Town Hall of the Official Committee of Tort Claimants' (the “TCC”) in the Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy cases will be held on Thursday, February 3, 2022, 8 pm (Eastern).

Please note, the TCC is actively engaged in all facets of this bankruptcy and wants to keep Survivors abreast of significant updates. PLEASE check this website to learn of any Town Halls that are scheduled before the first Thursday of the month.

Zoom link: https://pszjlaw.zoom.us/j/82272826295 (no registration required) 

or by phone: 888-788-0099 (toll free), Webinar ID: 822 7282 6295

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I may not be tying the threads together effectively:

1) The DE promoted to SE (in 1973) knew my SM was giving us booze and porn.

2) He drank with us and sang filthy songs around the camp fire.

3) I don't know what all he knew or did, frankly. 

4) I was first sexualized with alcohol and porn in May of 1972.

5) I was physically abused for the first time in July of 1972.

6) In 1973, he was the managing BSA executive on an abuse case across town from me, which is now in the IV Files. He was around for several others in our LC, though his name doesn't appear on the other IV Files.

7) From the case he managed, and possibly the others, he knew booze and porn were often precursors and grooming techniques leading to physical sexual abuse. 

* When I was 17, the same SE offered me cocaine, hash and weed for sex. He was still the active SE and I was a minor Eagle Scout. 

Does that help?

* Asterisk due to the 8 and parenthesis causing a smirking emoji to appear. Help??

😎

Your situation is horrible and truly unimaginable. 

I did not imagine it.  In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE.  A DE would never be promoted directly to SE.  First promotion to a field director.  Then, a promotion to a higher level director role.  It's a 25-30 year route in my council.  

I really have a hard time imagining (not saying it didn't happen ... I'm saying I can't envision it) where an SE would give drugs, alcohol and porn.   Perhaps I'm just too shielded from ugly things that people can do to each other.  

[Eagle94-A1]

@ThenNow,

1. repeat what I said previously about your abuse, Iam so sorry it happened and hope criminal SOLs can be lifted to get the folks that did that to you.

2. My question is in regards to settlement payments, i.e. who would be liable for misinformation on insurance? Reason I ask is because  I was told, and told others, that one of the benefits of being a CO is having BSA insurance cover them.

@fred8033,  sadly I have read of incidents where alcohol and porn were part of the grooming process. While not on the professional side, It did involve council employees hired for summer camp.

All,

Fred made a comment about 20 something DEs trying to stop situations. I can tell you it is hard. But that is where training kicks in and you follow procedure to keep the victims safe.

 

[yknot]

23 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Your situation is horrible and truly unimaginable. 

I did not imagine it.  In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE.  A DE would never be promoted directly to SE.  First promotion to a field director.  Then, a promotion to a higher level director role.  It's a 25-30 year route in my council.  

I really have a hard time imagining (not saying it didn't happen ... I'm saying I can't envision it) where an SE would give drugs, alcohol and porn.   Perhaps I'm just too shielded from ugly things that people can do to each other.  

 

This was recently reported. Not an SE, a DE, but it's still in the same dark category. 

https://www.newsweek.com/boy-scouts-executive-arrested-sexual-battery-molestation-charges-police-1669814

Earlier I had read through some of the abuse cases both in the media and in some of the letters. I had to stop because it was just too awful but these people did do the unimaginable. I think that's again yet another unique weakness in scouting. It attracts some of the most honorable people who can't even envision such things are possible . But that sadly only seemed to make it easier for the worst kinds of people to operate in the organization and prey on kids. 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Your situation is horrible and truly unimaginable. 

I did not imagine it.  In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE.  A DE would never be promoted directly to SE.  First promotion to a field director.  Then, a promotion to a higher level director role.  It's a 25-30 year route in my council.  

I really have a hard time imagining (not saying it didn't happen ... I'm saying I can't envision it) where an SE would give drugs, alcohol and porn.   Perhaps I'm just too shielded from ugly things that people can do to each other.  

Even the IVF had his signature noting District Executive/Scout Executive in transition. 

So you didn’t misunderstand, he was clearly aware of the alcohol and porn handed out by our SM. I said he was at least tacitly implicit, based on his knowledge of those facts concurrent with his involvement with abuse cases in our town. The specific case I mentioned was a Troop sponsored by the sister Catholic Church across town. I vaguely remember the ASM who was involved and thereafter bounced. I knew others in the Troop very, very well. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

59 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@ThenNow,

1. repeat what I said previously about your abuse, Iam so sorry it happened and hope criminal SOLs can be lifted to get the folks that did that to you.

And, thank you again. 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

In my council, there are two more levels between DE and SE.  A DE would never be promoted directly to SE.  First promotion to a field director.  Then, a promotion to a higher level director role.  It's a 25-30 year route in my council.  

So, is having a younger SE a complete fluke in 1973? Has it always been a long path, as you describe? There was a Council merger and expansion at the time and I know nothing of that or the politics. My main concerns revolved around being in a “newly named” LC, having an extra digit in front of our Troop number and having to change my OA Lodge (and pocket flap patch). We were a bit of a Wild Wild West show, but I knew nothing else. There was an older Scouter who showed up at some point, from where I don’t know, that was fantastic and fatherly. He was not around our Troop, per se, quite unfortunately. He is the one with whom I went to the OA National Conference (“A Thing of the Spirit”) held at UT Knoxville in August of 1977. I digress. 

[Eagle1993]

Quick update from TCC.

Tomorrow is the deadline for plan objections ... don't be surprised if the TCC doesn't file any.  Mediation is going well per TCC.  (They already have prior objections they can likely use).

There is movement on all three of their pillars (money, youth protection and leadership of the trust).  No specifics.  Doug Kennedy has taken the lead on youth protection and BSA is listening.

"1000s" of documents are being exchanged during mediation.  

They said if they don't get the money they believe that is needed, they are also working to cut costs of the trust.

Everyone is being respectful to each other.  Their hope was that if the vote didn't hit 75% they would see mediation ... that is what happened.

Watch for a TCC meeting in the future.  Sounds like it could be short notice if something comes up.

 This + the scheduled status hearing really makes me think there is a new plan coming with TCC buy in.

[vol_scouter]

@Eagle1993  That sounds really hopeful that we might soon see an agreement that will be approved.  We can all begin to move forward from this difficult two years.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

So, is having a younger SE a complete fluke in 1973? Has it always been a long path, as you describe? There was a Council merger and expansion at the time and I know nothing of that or the politics.

I do not know about the 1970s, but as far back as the 1980s, a council Scout Executive could not stay in the same council and go from DE to SE. There is a rule that a Director of Field Service (#2 in most councils) cannot move into a vacant SE position in their council. And it does tend to be a long path. National looks at the needs of a council, and gives the executive board a list of SE nominees that have a track record of fixing the council's issues at the time. For example, my council had a membership issue at one time, and the SE had a track records of fixing membership issues. Another time we had a program issue, and the nominees were program folks. Our current SE is a fundraising problem solver.  I have met good pros who are still in DE positions after 20+ years because they do not "specialize" in problem solving.

[vol_scouter]

@ThenNow There are several possibilities for what you describe.  As others have said, the usual hierarchy for most councils is Scout Executive, Director of Field Services, Field Director, and District Director.  I believe that it has been a policy that one could not advance beyond Field Director in the same council so that one changes councils from Field Director to Director of Field Services and then another council change from Director of Field Services to Scout Executive.  The HR department at national determines who is qualified to apply for a position.  So it usually takes a few years at best to go from a DE to SE.

Some thoughts about this are that some very small councils might have only one or two DE's and an SE.  That DE (could also be a District Director) could have duties and responsibilities that overlap with a DFS so the person could be allowed to move up.  Alternatively, there could be extraordinary circumstances where a SE is needed quickly and the DE (or DD) has some or all qualities and they are allowed to move up.  The Executive Board of the council may request a particular person and hire them though national does not agree.  The DFS may have had to function as a DE due to no DE and the look would be one of a DE moving to SE when it was really a DFS.  Finally, there could be some misunderstanding in the designation.  Could also be some combination.

Seems to me that the key facts are that a professional was at least enabling bad behavior that led to child abuse.  The professional transferred to a more authoritative position in a nearby council and the behavior continued.

We must all be vigilant so that such episodes cannot happen now and in the future.

It is terrible that such acts have damaged your life.  My prayers for healing.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

The professional transferred to a more authoritative position in a nearby council and the behavior continued.

Sorry. I’m being unclear. He was DE of our small council and became SE of the entity resulting from the merger of several. He got “bigger” as the council did. Thus, “SE in transition.” The council office location even remained the same.

[ThenNow]

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

They said if they don't get the money they believe that is needed, they are also working to cut costs of the trust.

This was an interesting "numerator vs. denominator" comment made by John H. I took it to mean, "Though the dollars in the trust are not going to be what you know we want, be assured we will find more coin in the form of tighter governance and reduced fees." He is obviously a wise b'ness man who's been around this negotiation block a time or three.

Edited February 4, 2022 by ThenNow